T3/T4 turbo

[Pisobiker]

On eBay a guy is selling a lot of them:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...tem=2427387092

It's claimed for some 530 whp ("wheels" hp?) on Civics/Integras

Mihnea and others, what do you think of it?
....Cannot see water cooling passages, though.....

Anyone got cold+hot side maps?

Marco

[S2 Ant]

Yeh be interested to see what people think!!!

Altho its bound to get up to a silly price anyway

[Mark Halligan]

This turbo (with this turbine housing) would not fit the audi exhaust manifolds and would require custom EM's or some kind of custom interface/adapter, as Audi EM's have a round turbine scroll flange with a raised lip, as opposed to the rectangular shaped inlet on this model, the compressor housing on the turbo pictured would also need drilling and tapping for the boost signal take off to the WGFV (not a big job).
It does however apart from this have some nice features in particular the 57 trim compressor, a fair sized turbine and the ball bearings.
It is easily possible to get the T3/T4 to fit the audi manifolds though.
I got mine from Turbonetics via their UK agent (Universal Turbos), this has the same 57 trim compressor, ceramic ball bearing and it also uses a turbonetics copy of the KKK #8 turbine housing.
I think the reason these are available from Turbonetics is because in the US there are a lot of Porsches, particularly being raced, and the logic in making these copies of the KKK hot side means that as an alternative to KKK the Turbonetics turbos can be bolted straight onto a Porsche and of course any other KKK OEM equipped car including Audi's.
The nice thing about these hybrids from Turbonetics is that they can be made to any spec you ask for (within their range). So although I have a #8 hot side, the turbine that I chose (a Turbonetics stage 3) is quite large at 63mm/2.48 inches and the turbine scroll was re-worked to take this.

Compressor maps can be found here:

http://64.225.76.178/catalog/Default.htm

Mark.

[Mark Halligan]

Turbo inlet view:

[Mark Halligan]

The buisiness end (mounted on the car)

[Pisobiker]

Wow, Mark !!!:eek2:

You got a really huge beast under your bonnet !
Looking at compressor maps, the 57mm trim unit seems capable of some 75% more flow that RS2 unit with comparable pressure ratios. Using it's potential in the mid to high rpm could mean going near the 600 hp range. Am I wrong?
What about peak boost threshold?

How much did that beauty cost?
Slurp, slurp....I would definitly love to put my hands on a turbocharger like that!

Marco

[Mark Halligan]

Hi Marco,

Yep its a nice turbo , what I like about these turbos is that its possible to look at what they (Turbonetics) have in their range and design a unit to your own specs. I chose the 57 trim compressor because I knew a few other people, mainly in the US (Rod on Kruemmer is one) were using it, I'd like to say that I 100% made my choice from the compressor maps but I used to find them a little confusing but I'm getting better at understanding them now .

I wanted something that would have a lot of potential in reserve, for if, or when I wanted to go further, once I have changed the con rods. Which is why I went for the larger stage 3 turbine.

The price was £1339 including tax, not too bad, as I was quoted close to that (more I think) for an MTM KKK K26/27 although they can be had for a lot less elsewhere.

Cheers Mark.

[Pisobiker]

Hi Mark,

well, with flowing capabilites of your cold side and stock con-rods I think you can actually go over 500 hp. This, of course, given you don't go above the 500 Nm that Mihnea gave as max safe limit for them at low rpm.
While raising at high rpm max torque applied can actually slightly increase because of the increasing inertial forces that oppose to the downward motion of piston thus reducing resultant force applied to conrod.
I make just an example of what I mean:

RS2 turbo can run say 1.7 bar max boost from as early as it can, up to 4-4.5k rpm. Than boost has to be decreased not to overspin the turbo above it's safe limit. With a higher flow turbocharger capable of providing the desired flow and compression ratio you can make the boost stay high all the way up to redline just to match max safe force applied to the conrods.
Results could look close to the following graph:

[Mihnea]

Nice graph Marco but I'm already past 500 Nm on the K26 7200 turbo, with 1.8 Bar from 3000 through 4500 Watch out for my email to you later tonight






Mihnea

[Mark Halligan]

Marco,

Thats a great graph, good to know I made a good choice then.

Thanks, Mark.

[Pisobiker]

Yeah, Mark.
And this of course given actual limitation of conrods. Using the turbocharger to its total performance capabilities you would probably have a torque and power graph that, on its progress, would look similar to the one of the k26 2700..... only difference is that peak torque would probably be close to 700 Nm (:eek2: ) and power to 600 Hp :eek2: :eek2: :eek2:

In this case, anyway, I think there should be some other engine and "strenght" issues to take care of, apart from conrods

...one little step at the time....

Marco


P.S. Mihnea, looking forward to see what you're suggesting

[Pisobiker]

Anyway, since I've seen a lot of questions related to conrod stresses in other forums as well, and think there is some missunderstending (sometimes even given by presumed statements done by some tuners), yesterday (having some time to spend) I made some personal research just to clearify to myself what's the deal with the problem. I'll put my comments and results in a new thread for the ones who may be interested.

Marco

[Pisobiker]

Ok, let's go back to the Turbonetics 57 trim cold side.
I did a first mistake when first looking at the map because Turbonetics flow is expressed in LBS/MIN , while RS2 map is expressed in Kg/SEC, so actual flow capabilities looked much more than it really are (but still great!)

Here is the "comparison" between the two maps. Sorry for the quality but this is the best I can do so late at night...:wacked:

[Pisobiker]

Unfortunatly I'm not able to plot exact engine behaviour on the maps because I don't have the following data:

- intake pressure vs. rpm at full load immediatly before cold side intake (P1C);
- pressure in the outlet of cold side (P2C) vs. rpm, compared to intake plenum pressure.

Only with this data is possible to perfectly trace the resultant flowing chart for our engine. Otherwise is only possible to take some (hopefully) logical conclusions:

From the chart , looking at same efficiency areas and impeller speeds, its possible to guess:

1) the "57 trim" has a slightly higer compression ratio capability of say 5%, so that if we suppose the "7200" has a peak (at plenum) of 2.8 absolute, the "57 trim" could go around 2.95 absolute.
2) the "57 trim" has a higher flow rate of something that looks near 25-27%,
so that if we suppose the "7200" @ 7000 rpm needs to drop pressure to 2.1 bar absolute not to overspin, then the "57 trim" could stay in the 2.65 bar absolute range.
3) "57 trim's" surge line is on much higer flow rates but without the real engine plot on the chart isn't possible to see the earliest rpm at which is actually possible to have max boost (hot side allowing).


Any other idea?
Anyone got the "missing" data?

Ciao

Marco