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Unread 06-06-12, 07:36 PM   #31
80Quattro
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My understanding of the running costs of a 2.7TT is based on what I have read on RS246, I was planning on buying an S4 a few years ago. I spent months looking for the right one so I spent a lot of time reading about them. Once I found one in the spec I wanted I went and test drove it and was massively disappointed with how slow it felt so I bought a TVR Cerbera instead! Very glad I did as I could buy an RS4 for what I was going to spend on an S4.

I think everyone on a certain forum has a bias towards their engine which is part of the reason why I did not get the impression that a 2.7TT is as unreliable as you say. My comments were not really based on the maintenance costs but the purchase cost of an RS4 engine compared to an RS2 engine.

The decision is months away so I will consider everything that you have said and discuss it further when I have done some more research.
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Unread 06-06-12, 07:45 PM   #32
Jamo
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Actually this forum is pretty impartial as a lot of members have both or had s4 / rs4
Believe what you will I know how much bi turbos cost purely from the work ive seen spent on them only the other day I saw one with 18k of mrc work on it!

To tune them you need to know what your doing Aidan's aka Bahnstorm car is a monster of a car and a giggle inducing beast

If you want the truth on them pm him on here Quattronutter he'll give you the impartial view being an s2 and s4 owner
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Unread 06-06-12, 07:51 PM   #33
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im not bias towards the i5 i would just like to give you a heads up, now that ive done the conversion, there is no way i would want to try to put a bigger engine in
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Unread 06-06-12, 07:58 PM   #34
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Agree with Jamo for a change.
And I own a RS4 myself, as I said before - I am not making these figures up.
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Unread 07-06-12, 06:37 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 80Quattro View Post
My understanding of the running costs of a 2.7TT is based on what I have read on RS246, I was planning on buying an S4 a few years ago. I spent months looking for the right one so I spent a lot of time reading about them. Once I found one in the spec I wanted I went and test drove it and was massively disappointed with how slow it felt so I bought a TVR Cerbera instead! Very glad I did as I could buy an RS4 for what I was going to spend on an S4.

I think everyone on a certain forum has a bias towards their engine which is part of the reason why I did not get the impression that a 2.7TT is as unreliable as you say. My comments were not really based on the maintenance costs but the purchase cost of an RS4 engine compared to an RS2 engine.

The decision is months away so I will consider everything that you have said and discuss it further when I have done some more research.
A wild idea, but if you want to be different and not go with a 5cyl... VR6T swap? Currently considering it for my Competition. Cheap engines, lots of space left around them (the radiator stays in front)... some custom parts needed of course...
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Unread 07-06-12, 07:36 AM   #36
80Quattro
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Well, lets consider what I want and then look at the practicality/cost of the options. As I said, I drove a B5 S4 and was massively underwhelmed by the performance, I can't see that an B5 is much heavier than a B4 so on that basis 260 BHP is nowhere near enough. I was looking to buy an engine and drop it straight in in standard form, if I thought I could buy and RS2 engine complete then it would be my choice without any hesitation but I think it is just unrealistic. Therefore, lets keep an open mind and say that the engine I choose can receive some level of tuning. As discussed, the B5 RS4 engine was my choice as it would give me 375 BHP, I wouldn't be looking to tune it, I'd really hope that was enough power and it is basically the same block as my car has now which must give some benefits. My point about an 20VT being expensive to tune was not relative to the cost of tuning a 2.7TT, I meant I think I will be able to buy a 2.7TT with the performance I require whereas if I use an ABY I will have to do some serious modifications to get the power I want.

That said, let's look at the ABY. First thing to consider is that almost everything in the engine bay is going to have to be moved or changed, even the cruise control pump bracket is different. If I can get hold of every part from the engine bay which unbolts for a reasonable price then this isn't such a problem, but if I have to buy parts new it will be very expensive. The engine mounts need to be welded in, is there a picture of the differences between the V6 and I5 mounts anywhere? If I did start with an ABY, what would I have to do to achieve around 400 BHP. I also want a very usable engine with low down torque, is this realistic? Of course, if it is possible to have more power with little turbo lag that would be great. I really would like to build it once rather than look to upgrade further at a later date, but I also wouldn't want to spend too much as this project is going to cost a lot already.

Based on that, what is your opinion and advice?
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Unread 07-06-12, 08:00 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 80Quattro View Post
I meant I think I will be able to buy a 2.7TT with the performance I require whereas if I use an ABY I will have to do some serious modifications to get the power I want.
Bolting on a bigger turbo and exhaust manifold plus injectors is a big modification?
What are you talking about? You will be lucky to pick up a RS4 engine for 2.5k, probably will cost more.
ABY or AAN engine will cost 1/5th of that price, and for 2.5k you can have a lot more performance.
Not to mention, did you completely ignore the running costs?
Quote:
That said, let's look at the ABY. First thing to consider is that almost everything in the engine bay is going to have to be moved or changed, even the cruise control pump bracket is different. If I can get hold of every part from the engine bay which unbolts for a reasonable price then this isn't such a problem, but if I have to buy parts new it will be very expensive. The engine mounts need to be welded in, is there a picture of the differences between the V6 and I5 mounts anywhere?
How is this *any* different in case of the AZR?
Quote:
If I did start with an ABY, what would I have to do to achieve around 400 BHP. I also want a very usable engine with low down torque, is this realistic? Of course, if it is possible to have more power with little turbo lag that would be great. I really would like to build it once rather than look to upgrade further at a later date, but I also wouldn't want to spend too much as this project is going to cost a lot already.
You need: fuel pump, injectors, turbo, exhaust manifold. Total of 1-1.5k in parts. Plus mapping, which will be another 300-400.

I really don't get how you can possibly compare these cost wise. Dropping an AZR in there, and getting it to work properly will cost at least 2x more.
It won't even start without ECU surgery.

I mean - go on, put a 2.7TT in there if you are fixated on it. But this will be at least 2x as expensive to start with and at least 3x as expensive to run.
It will be awesome though, if pulled off right. But if you are on a budget, forget it.
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Unread 07-06-12, 08:16 AM   #38
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Here's what I've got (not built yet) and from what I've been told it should be good for between 420 - 450 bhp you need;

Remapped ECU 300

550cc Injectors 200

K26/27 Hybrid Turbo (Hoffer) 700

RS2 Exhaust Manifold 200

RS2 Intercooler 200

044 Fuel Pump 130

Metal Head Gasket & Head Bolts (Victor Reinz kit) 100

Integrated Engineering Connecting Rods (rifle drilled) 450

Sachs Performance Clutch kit with reinforced pressure plate and organic clutch 500

Thats rough prices but thats a total of 2780 plus the cost of your engine and gearbox.....

You'd be better off buying a complete donar car, because you''ll need everything (mounts, engine, gearbox, wiring, plumbing, etc, etc) and you're better off going for an ABY if you can, saves a bit of hassle.
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Unread 07-06-12, 08:41 AM   #39
80Quattro
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Ok, I was thinking it would be sensible to change the rods which is a pretty serious modification in my opinion, the ones you have listed are not, I agree. Yes I did completely ignore the running costs.

My point about needing to change a lot of things in the engine bay was based on the thinking that the engine is not going to get in the way of the cooling system components for example. I'm not saying there won't be changes to make, I know there are major problems to overcome.

Getting the ECU to work with the 2.7TT is a big concern, I think I remember reading that someone who did the conversion had to use 2 ECUs.

I'm not fixated on using a 2.7TT, I'm trying to ask what it would take to achieve the performance I want and roughly how much is would cost using either engine. I know you have answered that but only as a continued example of what a stupid idea the 2.7TT is! I admit that I haven't done much research into the cost of either, that is why I was asking. My comments were based on comparing an AZR and an ADU, perhaps I have assumed incorrectly that an ABY would cost more to tune than it really would. I appreciate you advice and respect your knowledge, but I wanted a discussion and I feel like I'm being ridiculed instead.
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Unread 07-06-12, 08:51 AM   #40
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Dont be put off putitng the 2.7 TT engine into your project, but if your going to do it, do so for the right reasons which I think is what has everyone on high alert that there was a belief it would be cheaper to buy and run the bi-turbo than the I5 power plant.

For instantance Acidburn has a fully rebuilt engine, manifolds and turbo that is good for 500 bhp for 2.5k, for me that will be cheaper than a bi-turbo install
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Unread 07-06-12, 08:52 AM   #41
80Quattro
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lcsmith View Post
Here's what I've got (not built yet) and from what I've been told it should be good for between 420 - 450 bhp you need;

Remapped ECU 300

550cc Injectors 200

K26/27 Hybrid Turbo (Hoffer) 700

RS2 Exhaust Manifold 200

RS2 Intercooler 200

044 Fuel Pump 130

Metal Head Gasket & Head Bolts (Victor Reinz kit) 100

Integrated Engineering Connecting Rods (rifle drilled) 450

Sachs Performance Clutch kit with reinforced pressure plate and organic clutch 500

Thats rough prices but thats a total of 2780 plus the cost of your engine and gearbox.....

You'd be better off buying a complete donar car, because you''ll need everything (mounts, engine, gearbox, wiring, plumbing, etc, etc) and you're better off going for an ABY if you can, saves a bit of hassle.
Thank you very much for that, it is exactly the kind of breakdown I was after. It's not really practical for me to buy a donor car as I don't have the space. Stripping everything from the engine bay of an S2 that's being broken would be a possibility though. I have everything from the gearbox spacer back from an S2 Avant already.
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Unread 07-06-12, 09:02 AM   #42
80Quattro
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamo View Post
Dont be put off putitng the 2.7 TT engine into your project, but if your going to do it, do so for the right reasons which I think is what has everyone on high alert that there was a belief it would be cheaper to buy and run the bi-turbo than the I5 power plant.

For instantance Acidburn has a fully rebuilt engine, manifolds and turbo that is good for 500 bhp for 2.5k, for me that will be cheaper than a bi-turbo install
I can see the possibility for making really good power with a 20VT and it is tempting. On the other hand, why did Audi stop using the 20VT if it was such a capable engine? It has already been made clear that the 2.7TT is not more reliable.
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Unread 07-06-12, 09:18 AM   #43
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Why did Audi got back to 5 pot technology in the Audi TT RS and expected other new models
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Unread 07-06-12, 10:03 AM   #44
80Quattro
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamo View Post
Why did Audi got back to 5 pot technology in the Audi TT RS and expected other new models
Fair point!
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Unread 07-06-12, 10:06 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamo View Post
Why did Audi got back to 5 pot technology in the Audi TT RS and expected other new models
because of the sound and the sound only

But really if you're building a RS2 replica, why even consider anything else than a 5-pot?
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