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Julian's 91 200 20vt

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  • Julian's 91 200 20vt

    Hi everyone my name is Julian from the states. I wish I could be making my introduction under better circumstances but here goes.

    Once upon a time I blew my motor by installing an HX35 and spinning a rod bearing. I did my darnedest to tune the car while learning all I could about VEMS. Fast forward 2 months to me sending my spare 3b to a local machine shop for a refresh. The motor had an unknown history that I bought from a parts car a state away 3 years prior. It was nasty inside BUT the bearings were perfect according to the shop near my home. The did the works on the block and I provided my DM forged rods and calico bearings throughout. I even had them check tolerances and install the rotating assembly. They ultimately had to do a line bore on the main caps due to my ARP main stud kit from 034 (the upgraded version with one short stud). I provided **** instructions for installation of the studs so as to prevent damage to my brand new oil check valve. All precautions were taken to prevent joe schmoe from ruining my bucket list Audi build. I have a degree in engineering so I'm quite attentive to details and know that in most scenarios you must do things yourself for the best outcome. However, tolerancing a motor, let alone rebuilding one, is not part of my vast skill set so I paid the machinist to do the assembly of the block and new rings on stock cleaned pistons.

    I put blood sweat and tears into rebuilding the car before the weather turns evil here in Erie PA. I feel like the "perfectly built racecar" that breaks down as soon as it passes the finish line. I am exhausted and discouraged at this point. Also its f#cking cold outside now

    Ive been priming the engine, or so I thought, for about 2 weeks since finishing putting it together. It has run for about 20 seconds total between 2 attempts. Sounded great during those seconds.

    Heres my dilemma. I'm having a problem just as described here:
    http://www.s2forum.com/forum/showthr...o+oil+pressure

    The big difference is a professional machinist installed my brand new check valve in the block. I took many occasions to ask how that procedure went. "We had zero concerns during installation" he tells me every time. The bag containing the ARP hardware had torque instructions as well as the caution concerning use of the shortest stud in the #3 main's cap. The Bentley manual was provided for all other references and I used a bookmark for every location of concern. I even wrote all instructions again on the bookmark. I thought, "ill be damned if you can figure out a way to mess this up for me through my lack of instruction." check valve installed:
    https://www.ecstuning.com/Search/Sit...175b/ES282197/
    Yes the price has increased $13 since I bought it, because why not?

    To continue, I have had the 2 oil pressure sensors out for the last week so I could watch for oil from their locations during cranking. I'm using a starter button connected to the starter to eliminate any other draws on the battery. The sensor locations are DRY inside. Not a drop of oil. No oil pressure on the gauge in the dash (obviously due to a lack of OIL).

    After running a fresh battery down to under 12 volts, we decided to remove the oil feed line in a last ditch effort to find life in the oil system. I cranked the motor for under 10 seconds and that resulted in about 8 ounces of oil coming from the turbo feed line. No oil from anywhere else yet. the oil continued to run out even after I stopped cranking.

    So did my "machinist" ruin my perfectly laid plans by forgetting to install oil galley plugs while doing his job he received payment for or did he simply ruin my new check valve during assembly or is he at fault no matter what anyone thinks at this point?

    Here have a look at this:
    That's a representative cartoon picture of my face
    Sorry but I'm sure some of you will understand my demeanor at this point in time. Id greatly appreciate any and all input from her on out. Thanks in advance.

    PS I will have to borrow the tool needed to uninstall the check valve from the machinist to even check it

  • #2
    It would appear that editing my posts are impossible at this point. Anyone think I stand a chance of stripping the inside of the check valve during removal? I instructed the machinist to install it using blue Loctite which is the equivalent of what the Bentley indicates to use.

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    • #3
      so is the machine shop washing their hands of everything or are they offering any suggestions?

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      • #4
        so far he offered to look up the oil galley info. I doubt he will find anything. I told him I would also look. He was trying to be helpful but made it sound like he could do no more at that moment. he was closing in about 15 minutes that day. I asked him again about the check valve and he said they still could think of nothing that went wrong with its install. I will call him again tomorrow and try to get the triple square tool for the night. feeling violated lol

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        • #5
          he seemed like he wanted to help. we discussed the possibility of the pump being cavitated but digressed once he found out the turbo line was flowing. I told him I would be getting back to him again

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          • #6
            Ran into similar trouble when starting my freshly rebuilt engine. My problem was that the pump was not filled with oil though. I disconnected the turbo return line from the block and watched if oil flows from there when cranking. I removed the oil temperature sensor from the pump and filled it with oil using a syringe and a hose. Instant oil flow from the turbo return line and very good pressure when started.

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            • #7
              Sounds like your pump needs priming. It won't pick up any oil if it's dry.

              I used a syringe as above and filled from the oil pressure gauge location on the block. Worked straight away once the oil ran down into the pump. Wouldn't generate any pressure without the pre-oiling.
              91 Modded 3B
              14 A6 Avant Black Edition

              Comment


              • #8
                thanks guys

                I will literally try anything at this point! I'm more concerned primarily necause the turbo has been pushing lots of oil already. I filled the pump before putting the head on but as I hadn't put all the bolts on yet, some seeped out past the gasket. I will try through the temp sensor though. I also filled the oil filter during the start up prep. I can only see the machinist ruining the checkvalve by originally putting the wrong main stud in and then maybeputting the short one in after thge damage was done. I'm afraid ill break the valve on removal and have loctite/valve shavings left in the galley as well. Ill check back this weekend. TIA

                Comment


                • #9
                  AFAIK, the checkvalve is only there to prevent oil from flowing away from the head, so that it's not dry during start-ups. At the start, the pump pushes the oil into the block->oil filter housing area and only then it goes everywhere else. So even if the check valve is damaged, you won't have oil starvation. Correct me if I'm wrong ofc.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by RichLV View Post
                    AFAIK, the checkvalve is only there to prevent oil from flowing away from the head, so that it's not dry during start-ups. At the start, the pump pushes the oil into the block->oil filter housing area and only then it goes everywhere else. So even if the check valve is damaged, you won't have oil starvation. Correct me if I'm wrong ofc.
                    That is the way I understand it as well.

                    Oil Pump, Temperature Sender, Pressure Relief Valve Info:
                    http://forums.quattroworld.com/s4s6/msgs/93029.phtml

                    20VT Oil Pressure Sender, Switches, Wiring and Check Valves (with UPDATES):

                    http://forums.quattroworld.com/s4s6/msgs/96161.phtml

                    RS2'd 93 UrS4 5 spd sedan
                    94 UrS4 V8 6 spd manual avant

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Thabks for the links guys. I've been through the quattroworld page many times for the valve and associated systems. I knew it shouldn't be taken lightly when I began this ordeal. Ill be so sad if a teardown becomes necessary. Right about $200 in gaskets and then fluids ruined in addition. I mated gasket surfaces like a loving dog breeder. Lots of time and effort devoted to the surfaces including painting key points by finger with exact portions of ultra black rtv lol. Hopefully this checkvalve that's no larger than a bullet vibrator won't be used to #### me in the end ;(

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                      • #12
                        Steve am I understanding you correctly that you removed the gauge sender and checkvalve and THEN proceded to fill those areas with the syringe? At first I read it as everyone was removing the oil temp sender to top up the pump through there.

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                        • #13
                          Becoming further discouraged after priming pump through temp sensor hole while hand spinning motor in reverse. Could actually hear the pump gears until i got it full. Cranked with starter for a couple minutes only to be greeted by dry galleys again. Almost time to set car on fire

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by 88a5tq View Post
                            Becoming further discouraged after priming pump through temp sensor hole while hand spinning motor in reverse. Could actually hear the pump gears until i got it full. Cranked with starter for a couple minutes only to be greeted by dry galleys again. Almost time to set car on fire
                            Why would you spin it in reverse? Just fill the pump up until it starts to drip oil through the temp sensor hole, plug the sensor back in and spin the engine with the starter, while the spark plugs are out and injectors are disconnected.

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                            • #15
                              When I pulled the sensor out and first started putting oil in it wasd already dripping back out. I guess I figured spinning it backwards would draw in more oil through there. It seemed to work once the pump got quiet. I got probably 70 cc's in there doing that. I'm considering taking out the checkvalve to fill that galley and then trying to prime again in order to check for pressure in that area. I've been priming it for a week without the plugs in or injectors plugged in. Thanks

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