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  • #46
    Originally posted by quattrostyle View Post
    But really if you're building a RS2 replica, why even consider anything else than a 5-pot?
    Because most people will never look under the bonnet!
    92 Audi 80 Quattro => RS2 Saloon!
    98 TVR Cerbera 4.5
    63 Austin Mini Super Deluxe (turbocharged)
    69 Austin Mini Cooper
    71 MGB GT
    75 Daimler Vanden Plas 4.2L
    04 Kawasaki GPX250
    96 Subaru Legacy GT-B

    Comment


    • #47
      When we re-engined the Rallywreck we nearly went for the 340bhp 4.2V8, without cats, a single box exhaust, a bit of ECU work and a decent induction system there must be north of 350bhp there.... We ummed-and-arred for weeks, then we were offered an UrS6 so went the 20vT route... I still wonder sometimes if the 4.2 route would have made a better animal, with less forward weight, bucket loads of low down torque and, ultimately, in very unstressed/almost standard spec....

      There are a few V8 B4's on the 'tube now... Have a mooch, it might just tickle your fancy...

      VBR
      Ian
      85 WR Urquattro, 85 20vT International liveried RallyRep
      93 MTMS2 Avant

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by 80Quattro View Post
        Ok, I was thinking it would be sensible to change the rods which is a pretty serious modification in my opinion, the ones you have listed are not, I agree. Yes I did completely ignore the running costs.
        You don't have to change the rods, unless you want to go past 600nm.
        My point about needing to change a lot of things in the engine bay was based on the thinking that the engine is not going to get in the way of the cooling system components for example. I'm not saying there won't be changes to make, I know there are major problems to overcome.
        That all falls apart when installing everything else from the 2.7TT.
        Getting the ECU to work with the 2.7TT is a big concern, I think I remember reading that someone who did the conversion had to use 2 ECUs.
        It's not a big problem. Of course you will need the ECU and loom with the engine.
        But making it start/work is not an issue. Will need some surgery, but I can handle it - and there are others who can as well.
        I'm not fixated on using a 2.7TT, I'm trying to ask what it would take to achieve the performance I want and roughly how much is would cost using either engine. I know you have answered that but only as a continued example of what a stupid idea the 2.7TT is! I admit that I haven't done much research into the cost of either, that is why I was asking. My comments were based on comparing an AZR and an ADU, perhaps I have assumed incorrectly that an ABY would cost more to tune than it really would. I appreciate you advice and respect your knowledge, but I wanted a discussion and I feel like I'm being ridiculed instead.
        Basically, Jamo already said it:
        Originally posted by Jamo View Post
        Dont be put off putitng the 2.7 TT engine into your project, but if your going to do it, do so for the right reasons which I think is what has everyone on high alert that there was a belief it would be cheaper to buy and run the bi-turbo than the I5 power plant.
        The reason you are being told that the 2.7TT is a stupid idea, is because you seem to want to place the decision based on *cost*. And want to say that the 2.7TT is going to *cost* less. This is a ridiculous statement for anyone who has first hand experience with both engines.

        If you said "I want to make my car really awesome, and cost does not factor too much into it", then you'd get completely different answers. I think from a performance and drivability standpoint most people would tell you to go for the 2.7TT, and there would be only the argument about whether it is right to fit a 2.7TT instead of the I5 when you are trying to build an RS2 replica.
        Of course, for the same money you make 450hp with the AZR engine you could be making over 600 in the ABY.

        Originally posted by Ian Simmonds View Post
        When we re-engined the Rallywreck we nearly went for the 340bhp 4.2V8, without cats, a single box exhaust, a bit of ECU work and a decent induction system there must be north of 350bhp there.... We ummed-and-arred for weeks, then we were offered an UrS6 so went the 20vT route... I still wonder sometimes if the 4.2 route would have made a better animal, with less forward weight, bucket loads of low down torque and, ultimately, in very unstressed/almost standard spec....

        There are a few V8 B4's on the 'tube now... Have a mooch, it might just tickle your fancy...
        And this is what I agree on as well.
        If you want no turbo lag, then don't go for a turbocharged engine. Fit a V8 in there.
        Plenty of power, won't weigh more because it's an aluminum block, and they are not that expensive.
        http://tuner.ee - http://www.facebook.com/tuner.ee

        Comment


        • #49
          If I accept that I was wrong and a 2.7TT will not cost less than a 20VT making the same power then can we never mention it again because I am utterly tired of hearing it? As I said, I based what I said on the comparison of an AZR and an ADU, I didn't consider using an ABY or AAN as I incorrectly assumed that tuning one to produce the same power would, again, cost significantly more than the AZR. The running costs of the 2.7TT are not too much of a concern to me but I will consider what you have said. That is unless you truly believe they are inherently unreliable and think that it's problems far outweigh any advantages it may have.

          Perhaps I have explained badly quite what I meant with regards to turbo lag. I like the characteristics of turbocharged engines a lot, what I was getting at is if I build a 20VT with a turbo capable of delivering somewhere in the region of 400+ BHP, should I expect turbo lag which will effect the usability of the car in general driving and at what RPM should I expect the turbo to come in. I know these are basic questions but I do not have much knowledge of what the 20VT is capable of.

          I have just looked at an Audi 80 V8 build and it required the chassis rails, transmission tunnel and the subframe to be modified. Are you saying that is an easier conversion than the 2.7TT as I did not anticipate that level of alteration to be necessary.
          92 Audi 80 Quattro => RS2 Saloon!
          98 TVR Cerbera 4.5
          63 Austin Mini Super Deluxe (turbocharged)
          69 Austin Mini Cooper
          71 MGB GT
          75 Daimler Vanden Plas 4.2L
          04 Kawasaki GPX250
          96 Subaru Legacy GT-B

          Comment


          • #50
            Well at least the chassis rails need to be cut, narrowed and welded again for the 2.7BiT, about the rest I don't know.
            Can't imagine the transmission tunnel needs to be modified to fit a V8, because erm it's the tranmission tunnel so that's not where the engine is supposed to be

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by quattrostyle View Post
              Well at least the chassis rails need to be cut, narrowed and welded again for the 2.7BiT, about the rest I don't know.
              Can't imagine the transmission tunnel needs to be modified to fit a V8, because erm it's the tranmission tunnel so that's not where the engine is supposed to be
              The gearbox ended up higher, I'm not sure if this was necessary or not but it meant the reinforcing in the tunnel had to be cut and re-welded. I would expect the 2.7TT to be less work as the gearbox and engine will fit in the position they are now, but as it has been well proved, what do I know
              92 Audi 80 Quattro => RS2 Saloon!
              98 TVR Cerbera 4.5
              63 Austin Mini Super Deluxe (turbocharged)
              69 Austin Mini Cooper
              71 MGB GT
              75 Daimler Vanden Plas 4.2L
              04 Kawasaki GPX250
              96 Subaru Legacy GT-B

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by 80Quattro View Post
                The running costs of the 2.7TT are not too much of a concern to me but I will consider what you have said.
                I don't know why they are no concern, but then the costs of of fitting the thing are.
                As I said before, I spent 2 grand in parts on 120k mile maintenance. This is not counting work hours! Only parts! I don't consider them inherently unreliable, there's just three or four times as many sensors and plumbing with it compared to the 2.2T which is crazy simple.

                Perhaps I have explained badly quite what I meant with regards to turbo lag. I like the characteristics of turbocharged engines a lot, what I was getting at is if I build a 20VT with a turbo capable of delivering somewhere in the region of 400+ BHP, should I expect turbo lag which will effect the usability of the car in general driving and at what RPM should I expect the turbo to come in. I know these are basic questions but I do not have much knowledge of what the 20VT is capable of.
                For 400hp, if you go with a GT3071R with the 0.63 A/R hotside, you will have full boost in third gear by 3600 RPM.

                I can try and find a 3rd gear log if you like. But I don't think there is much point

                Here is a spoolup graph from my RS4 in 3rd gear:

                It is less on-off, and it's 80% of the way there at 3300 RPM.
                http://tuner.ee - http://www.facebook.com/tuner.ee

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by prj View Post
                  I don't know why they are no concern, but then the costs of of fitting the thing are.
                  As I said before, I spent 2 grand in parts on 120k mile maintenance. This is not counting work hours! Only parts! I don't consider them inherently unreliable, there's just three or four times as many sensors and plumbing with it compared to the 2.2T which is crazy simple.


                  For 400hp, if you go with a GT3071R with the 0.63 A/R hotside, you will have full boost in third gear by 3600 RPM.

                  I can try and find a 3rd gear log if you like. But I don't think there is much point

                  Here is a spoolup graph from my RS4 in 3rd gear:

                  It is less on-off, and it's 80% of the way there at 3300 RPM.
                  I don't really want my decision to be based on the cost of maintenance, I understand what you are saying and the costs do seem obscene so it is not something I will ignore completely.

                  That sounds like a very reasonable spool up for 400BHP with the Garrett, it does not sound like it would be much of a compromise but it is difficult to tell without driving a car with that set up. Your RS4 is arguably better still and that is one of the reasons I was considering that engine.

                  I'm going to do some research into what people on here are achieving with 20VT engines, what modification are necessary and what they cost to build as it is something I have not looked into before. Once I have done that I will be better placed to make an informed decision.

                  Interestingly, I came across a video of a cabriolet with a 2.7TT engine on youtube. It looks like a very neat install but there are no pictures of the build unfortunately. I would be very interested to see what people who have done this conversion have done to make the manifolds and turbos fit as it looks very tight on an RS4 so the difficulties of fitting it to an 80 are very apparent.
                  92 Audi 80 Quattro => RS2 Saloon!
                  98 TVR Cerbera 4.5
                  63 Austin Mini Super Deluxe (turbocharged)
                  69 Austin Mini Cooper
                  71 MGB GT
                  75 Daimler Vanden Plas 4.2L
                  04 Kawasaki GPX250
                  96 Subaru Legacy GT-B

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    http://www.s2forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=51685

                    http://www.motorgeek.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=6549

                    http://www.km-tuning.de/kmtuning/content/view/203/447/

                    There are others but non with many pics as the conversion details have been kept secret to those performing them

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Jamo View Post
                      http://www.s2forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=51685

                      http://www.motorgeek.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=6549

                      http://www.km-tuning.de/kmtuning/content/view/203/447/

                      There are others but non with many pics as the conversion details have been kept secret to those performing them
                      Thanks Jamo. I had seen the second 2 but not the one on here oddly! It's a strange choice of engine for an S2 even in my opinion! The Canadian one makes more sense and I don't think he has done anything to the frame rails so he has done very well to make it fit. I can see that the 20VT will be an easier option.
                      92 Audi 80 Quattro => RS2 Saloon!
                      98 TVR Cerbera 4.5
                      63 Austin Mini Super Deluxe (turbocharged)
                      69 Austin Mini Cooper
                      71 MGB GT
                      75 Daimler Vanden Plas 4.2L
                      04 Kawasaki GPX250
                      96 Subaru Legacy GT-B

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Nothing particularly exciting to share, but just to show a small amount of progress;

                        IMG_0621 by Matt4475, on Flickr

                        IMG_0622 by Matt4475, on Flickr

                        IMG_0623 by Matt4475, on Flickr

                        IMG_0624 by Matt4475, on Flickr

                        IMG_0625 by Matt4475, on Flickr

                        For the time, effort and cost of getting those parts they look really insignificant, but they all help towards the end result.

                        I've also agreed to buy an engine and everything needed to fit it. It's an ABY which will please some of you I'm sure! I've bought it minus the manifolds and turbo to allow for upgrades. I'm not sure which turbo I'll be using yet, I would like to aim for about 500hp at the flywheel, is that a realistic target without compromising low down torque too much? The engine is going to have a full rebuild, I will change the rods and most likely the pistons. I don't have it yet so I can't be sure quite what it will need.
                        Last edited by 80Quattro; 12th July 2017, 09:45.
                        92 Audi 80 Quattro => RS2 Saloon!
                        98 TVR Cerbera 4.5
                        63 Austin Mini Super Deluxe (turbocharged)
                        69 Austin Mini Cooper
                        71 MGB GT
                        75 Daimler Vanden Plas 4.2L
                        04 Kawasaki GPX250
                        96 Subaru Legacy GT-B

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          That light panel for the boot lid will make a big difference when it comes to the RS2 look.
                          However, that means moving the plate to the bumper. Will you modify the bumper to have the RS2 plate location?

                          Glad you are going 20vt. 400-500hp 20vt builds have been done quite a bit.
                          If it is tuned properly, low rev torque should be OK.

                          Btw, there is a Norwegian RS2 replica build floating around somewhere. It was done near perfect.
                          '96 UrS6 auto PRJ chipped E85
                          '95 80Q AEB VEMS E85

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by ChrisAudi80 View Post
                            That light panel for the boot lid will make a big difference when it comes to the RS2 look.
                            However, that means moving the plate to the bumper. Will you modify the bumper to have the RS2 plate location?

                            Glad you are going 20vt. 400-500hp 20vt builds have been done quite a bit.
                            If it is tuned properly, low rev torque should be OK.

                            Btw, there is a Norwegian RS2 replica build floating around somewhere. It was done near perfect.
                            I'm going to use an RS2 rear bumper, it is a straight fit. I'm just having massive difficulty finding one in this country, I can find them in mainland Europe but the shipping cost is almost as much as the bumper.

                            I'm thinking of using a GTX3076 with a 0.63 A/R, I think that should give me what I want but I have some time to do more research so I haven't made a decision yet. I'm going to use Wagner manifolds and plan to have some level of modification done to the head so I don't have to run too much boost to achieve the power I want.

                            I have seen that Norwegian one, it looks stunning. I hope mine can look half as good as that.
                            92 Audi 80 Quattro => RS2 Saloon!
                            98 TVR Cerbera 4.5
                            63 Austin Mini Super Deluxe (turbocharged)
                            69 Austin Mini Cooper
                            71 MGB GT
                            75 Daimler Vanden Plas 4.2L
                            04 Kawasaki GPX250
                            96 Subaru Legacy GT-B

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              That would be a bad choice of turbo especially with that hotside as it's already flow limited by the turbine wheel, you would be better getting the gtx3071 with the .82

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Jamo View Post
                                That would be a bad choice of turbo especially with that hotside as it's already flow limited by the turbine wheel, you would be better getting the gtx3071 with the .82
                                Isn't it the same turbine on the 3076 and 3071? Surely if the turbine on the 3076 is capable of delivering over 600hp then it should not be too restrictive at 500 or is a .63 just too small? If there is too much flow for the turbine it simply goes through the wastegate, if I choose too small a compressor it is going to be a restriction no matter what I do. Would a .82 on a 3076 have too much lag? I would be concerned that a 3071 is going to be too near it's limits to be efficient at 500hp.

                                Is anyone using a GTX3076 with .63 housing, or is it just a stupid idea?
                                92 Audi 80 Quattro => RS2 Saloon!
                                98 TVR Cerbera 4.5
                                63 Austin Mini Super Deluxe (turbocharged)
                                69 Austin Mini Cooper
                                71 MGB GT
                                75 Daimler Vanden Plas 4.2L
                                04 Kawasaki GPX250
                                96 Subaru Legacy GT-B

                                Comment

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