Originally posted by quattrostyle
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80q => RS2 Saloon
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92 Audi 80 Quattro => RS2 Saloon!
98 TVR Cerbera 4.5
63 Austin Mini Super Deluxe (turbocharged)
69 Austin Mini Cooper
71 MGB GT
75 Daimler Vanden Plas 4.2L
04 Kawasaki GPX250
96 Subaru Legacy GT-B
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When we re-engined the Rallywreck we nearly went for the 340bhp 4.2V8, without cats, a single box exhaust, a bit of ECU work and a decent induction system there must be north of 350bhp there.... We ummed-and-arred for weeks, then we were offered an UrS6 so went the 20vT route... I still wonder sometimes if the 4.2 route would have made a better animal, with less forward weight, bucket loads of low down torque and, ultimately, in very unstressed/almost standard spec....
There are a few V8 B4's on the 'tube now... Have a mooch, it might just tickle your fancy...
VBR
Ian85 WR Urquattro, 85 20vT International liveried RallyRep
93 MTMS2 Avant
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Originally posted by 80Quattro View PostOk, I was thinking it would be sensible to change the rods which is a pretty serious modification in my opinion, the ones you have listed are not, I agree. Yes I did completely ignore the running costs.
My point about needing to change a lot of things in the engine bay was based on the thinking that the engine is not going to get in the way of the cooling system components for example. I'm not saying there won't be changes to make, I know there are major problems to overcome.
Getting the ECU to work with the 2.7TT is a big concern, I think I remember reading that someone who did the conversion had to use 2 ECUs.
But making it start/work is not an issue. Will need some surgery, but I can handle it - and there are others who can as well.
I'm not fixated on using a 2.7TT, I'm trying to ask what it would take to achieve the performance I want and roughly how much is would cost using either engine. I know you have answered that but only as a continued example of what a stupid idea the 2.7TT is! I admit that I haven't done much research into the cost of either, that is why I was asking. My comments were based on comparing an AZR and an ADU, perhaps I have assumed incorrectly that an ABY would cost more to tune than it really would. I appreciate you advice and respect your knowledge, but I wanted a discussion and I feel like I'm being ridiculed instead.
Originally posted by Jamo View PostDont be put off putitng the 2.7 TT engine into your project, but if your going to do it, do so for the right reasons which I think is what has everyone on high alert that there was a belief it would be cheaper to buy and run the bi-turbo than the I5 power plant.
If you said "I want to make my car really awesome, and cost does not factor too much into it", then you'd get completely different answers. I think from a performance and drivability standpoint most people would tell you to go for the 2.7TT, and there would be only the argument about whether it is right to fit a 2.7TT instead of the I5 when you are trying to build an RS2 replica.
Of course, for the same money you make 450hp with the AZR engine you could be making over 600 in the ABY.
Originally posted by Ian Simmonds View PostWhen we re-engined the Rallywreck we nearly went for the 340bhp 4.2V8, without cats, a single box exhaust, a bit of ECU work and a decent induction system there must be north of 350bhp there.... We ummed-and-arred for weeks, then we were offered an UrS6 so went the 20vT route... I still wonder sometimes if the 4.2 route would have made a better animal, with less forward weight, bucket loads of low down torque and, ultimately, in very unstressed/almost standard spec....
There are a few V8 B4's on the 'tube now... Have a mooch, it might just tickle your fancy...
If you want no turbo lag, then don't go for a turbocharged engine. Fit a V8 in there.
Plenty of power, won't weigh more because it's an aluminum block, and they are not that expensive.
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If I accept that I was wrong and a 2.7TT will not cost less than a 20VT making the same power then can we never mention it again because I am utterly tired of hearing it? As I said, I based what I said on the comparison of an AZR and an ADU, I didn't consider using an ABY or AAN as I incorrectly assumed that tuning one to produce the same power would, again, cost significantly more than the AZR. The running costs of the 2.7TT are not too much of a concern to me but I will consider what you have said. That is unless you truly believe they are inherently unreliable and think that it's problems far outweigh any advantages it may have.
Perhaps I have explained badly quite what I meant with regards to turbo lag. I like the characteristics of turbocharged engines a lot, what I was getting at is if I build a 20VT with a turbo capable of delivering somewhere in the region of 400+ BHP, should I expect turbo lag which will effect the usability of the car in general driving and at what RPM should I expect the turbo to come in. I know these are basic questions but I do not have much knowledge of what the 20VT is capable of.
I have just looked at an Audi 80 V8 build and it required the chassis rails, transmission tunnel and the subframe to be modified. Are you saying that is an easier conversion than the 2.7TT as I did not anticipate that level of alteration to be necessary.92 Audi 80 Quattro => RS2 Saloon!
98 TVR Cerbera 4.5
63 Austin Mini Super Deluxe (turbocharged)
69 Austin Mini Cooper
71 MGB GT
75 Daimler Vanden Plas 4.2L
04 Kawasaki GPX250
96 Subaru Legacy GT-B
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Originally posted by quattrostyle View PostWell at least the chassis rails need to be cut, narrowed and welded again for the 2.7BiT, about the rest I don't know.
Can't imagine the transmission tunnel needs to be modified to fit a V8, because erm it's the tranmission tunnel so that's not where the engine is supposed to be92 Audi 80 Quattro => RS2 Saloon!
98 TVR Cerbera 4.5
63 Austin Mini Super Deluxe (turbocharged)
69 Austin Mini Cooper
71 MGB GT
75 Daimler Vanden Plas 4.2L
04 Kawasaki GPX250
96 Subaru Legacy GT-B
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Originally posted by 80Quattro View PostThe running costs of the 2.7TT are not too much of a concern to me but I will consider what you have said.
As I said before, I spent 2 grand in parts on 120k mile maintenance. This is not counting work hours! Only parts! I don't consider them inherently unreliable, there's just three or four times as many sensors and plumbing with it compared to the 2.2T which is crazy simple.
Perhaps I have explained badly quite what I meant with regards to turbo lag. I like the characteristics of turbocharged engines a lot, what I was getting at is if I build a 20VT with a turbo capable of delivering somewhere in the region of 400+ BHP, should I expect turbo lag which will effect the usability of the car in general driving and at what RPM should I expect the turbo to come in. I know these are basic questions but I do not have much knowledge of what the 20VT is capable of.
I can try and find a 3rd gear log if you like. But I don't think there is much point
Here is a spoolup graph from my RS4 in 3rd gear:
It is less on-off, and it's 80% of the way there at 3300 RPM.
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Originally posted by prj View PostI don't know why they are no concern, but then the costs of of fitting the thing are.
As I said before, I spent 2 grand in parts on 120k mile maintenance. This is not counting work hours! Only parts! I don't consider them inherently unreliable, there's just three or four times as many sensors and plumbing with it compared to the 2.2T which is crazy simple.
For 400hp, if you go with a GT3071R with the 0.63 A/R hotside, you will have full boost in third gear by 3600 RPM.
I can try and find a 3rd gear log if you like. But I don't think there is much point
Here is a spoolup graph from my RS4 in 3rd gear:
It is less on-off, and it's 80% of the way there at 3300 RPM.
That sounds like a very reasonable spool up for 400BHP with the Garrett, it does not sound like it would be much of a compromise but it is difficult to tell without driving a car with that set up. Your RS4 is arguably better still and that is one of the reasons I was considering that engine.
I'm going to do some research into what people on here are achieving with 20VT engines, what modification are necessary and what they cost to build as it is something I have not looked into before. Once I have done that I will be better placed to make an informed decision.
Interestingly, I came across a video of a cabriolet with a 2.7TT engine on youtube. It looks like a very neat install but there are no pictures of the build unfortunately. I would be very interested to see what people who have done this conversion have done to make the manifolds and turbos fit as it looks very tight on an RS4 so the difficulties of fitting it to an 80 are very apparent.92 Audi 80 Quattro => RS2 Saloon!
98 TVR Cerbera 4.5
63 Austin Mini Super Deluxe (turbocharged)
69 Austin Mini Cooper
71 MGB GT
75 Daimler Vanden Plas 4.2L
04 Kawasaki GPX250
96 Subaru Legacy GT-B
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http://www.s2forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=51685
http://www.motorgeek.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=6549
http://www.km-tuning.de/kmtuning/content/view/203/447/
There are others but non with many pics as the conversion details have been kept secret to those performing them
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Originally posted by Jamo View Posthttp://www.s2forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=51685
http://www.motorgeek.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=6549
http://www.km-tuning.de/kmtuning/content/view/203/447/
There are others but non with many pics as the conversion details have been kept secret to those performing them92 Audi 80 Quattro => RS2 Saloon!
98 TVR Cerbera 4.5
63 Austin Mini Super Deluxe (turbocharged)
69 Austin Mini Cooper
71 MGB GT
75 Daimler Vanden Plas 4.2L
04 Kawasaki GPX250
96 Subaru Legacy GT-B
Comment
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Nothing particularly exciting to share, but just to show a small amount of progress;
IMG_0621 by Matt4475, on Flickr
IMG_0622 by Matt4475, on Flickr
IMG_0623 by Matt4475, on Flickr
IMG_0624 by Matt4475, on Flickr
IMG_0625 by Matt4475, on Flickr
For the time, effort and cost of getting those parts they look really insignificant, but they all help towards the end result.
I've also agreed to buy an engine and everything needed to fit it. It's an ABY which will please some of you I'm sure! I've bought it minus the manifolds and turbo to allow for upgrades. I'm not sure which turbo I'll be using yet, I would like to aim for about 500hp at the flywheel, is that a realistic target without compromising low down torque too much? The engine is going to have a full rebuild, I will change the rods and most likely the pistons. I don't have it yet so I can't be sure quite what it will need.Last edited by 80Quattro; 12 July 2017, 09:45.92 Audi 80 Quattro => RS2 Saloon!
98 TVR Cerbera 4.5
63 Austin Mini Super Deluxe (turbocharged)
69 Austin Mini Cooper
71 MGB GT
75 Daimler Vanden Plas 4.2L
04 Kawasaki GPX250
96 Subaru Legacy GT-B
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That light panel for the boot lid will make a big difference when it comes to the RS2 look.
However, that means moving the plate to the bumper. Will you modify the bumper to have the RS2 plate location?
Glad you are going 20vt. 400-500hp 20vt builds have been done quite a bit.
If it is tuned properly, low rev torque should be OK.
Btw, there is a Norwegian RS2 replica build floating around somewhere. It was done near perfect.'96 UrS6 auto PRJ chipped E85
'95 80Q AEB VEMS E85
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Originally posted by ChrisAudi80 View PostThat light panel for the boot lid will make a big difference when it comes to the RS2 look.
However, that means moving the plate to the bumper. Will you modify the bumper to have the RS2 plate location?
Glad you are going 20vt. 400-500hp 20vt builds have been done quite a bit.
If it is tuned properly, low rev torque should be OK.
Btw, there is a Norwegian RS2 replica build floating around somewhere. It was done near perfect.
I'm thinking of using a GTX3076 with a 0.63 A/R, I think that should give me what I want but I have some time to do more research so I haven't made a decision yet. I'm going to use Wagner manifolds and plan to have some level of modification done to the head so I don't have to run too much boost to achieve the power I want.
I have seen that Norwegian one, it looks stunning. I hope mine can look half as good as that.92 Audi 80 Quattro => RS2 Saloon!
98 TVR Cerbera 4.5
63 Austin Mini Super Deluxe (turbocharged)
69 Austin Mini Cooper
71 MGB GT
75 Daimler Vanden Plas 4.2L
04 Kawasaki GPX250
96 Subaru Legacy GT-B
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Originally posted by Jamo View PostThat would be a bad choice of turbo especially with that hotside as it's already flow limited by the turbine wheel, you would be better getting the gtx3071 with the .82
Is anyone using a GTX3076 with .63 housing, or is it just a stupid idea?92 Audi 80 Quattro => RS2 Saloon!
98 TVR Cerbera 4.5
63 Austin Mini Super Deluxe (turbocharged)
69 Austin Mini Cooper
71 MGB GT
75 Daimler Vanden Plas 4.2L
04 Kawasaki GPX250
96 Subaru Legacy GT-B
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