Suspension Advice

[terrybullwon]

I'm running H&Rs and Konis on mine and really happy with it, find it pretty comfy actually

Same here when i did Alex, if anything on track they were still to soft for the weight of the car

[mouse]

When (and if) I get around to changing springs I would try the Cobra springs which are a 25mm drop rather than the 40 of the H&Rs. I don't think anyone here has tried them so no reviews on how they perform but you would think they would be somewhere between stock & h&r in stiffness which could be a good compromise.

[diesel des]

What about good dampers for a urs6. I have koni and eibach springs. the car is way too under dampened. at the front I mean. the front bounces over long slow undulating bumps and would make you sea sick. now with the konis fully wound up at the front it is only slightly underdampened, but can be a little crashy at times.

how are billys.

[UR-S4]

stick with the billies.i know the man who can rebuild them.we had s2avants front dampers revalved it made a huge differance,ask ben !! just the rears to sort.....

[macspring]

Consider this lot just to add to the "confusion"

I drive an S2 Avant everyday in the city as a daily with lots of speed ramps and the roads can be worse than in the UK, bad temp road repairs (proud or a few days later countersunk) and lots of sunken manholes.

I had H&Rs with Konis and 17inch as that's how I bought the car, it looked great low, but was too hard for the speed ramps etc. Can't remember what the settings were on the Konis. I'm sure not fully soft. Standard ARBs. Std subframe bushes. It had nylon bushes in the front pressed steel wishbones. RS2 front brakes and rear brakes, it had been converted to 5 x 130 RS2 wheels and hubs by the previous owner.

What with having a couple of B4 I've tried a good few combinations and without wanting to make this post far longer than it already is I sumarise the current set up and make one or two points I've noticed.

On the second hand nylon bushes I got for forged front wishbones the metal insert was loose and was giving the same effect as a loose rubber bush with none of the absorbing movement of a rubber, so the car was better when this was changed, in this instance for std rubber bushes in the forged front wishbones. I'm sure the newer coloured plastic wouldn't have this problem, but just mentoning it just in case.

On the B4 99 2.6 Cabrio changed the hubs to 5 x 112 and fitted the S8s on 225/40/18 and with the std springs and shocks it drove very well bumps etc, and handled remarkable well on roundabouts neutral, for a std fwd B4. Changed the front wishbones to plastic bushes in the pressed steel wishbones and its turn in appeared better to me

With the Avant above on H&R and Konis 17" inch, I changed to RS2 fARB and Neuspeed rARB and these still make a big noticeable and worthwhile improvement to the cornering, a good with no downside change to make to a B4 IMHO. Never got to try the rARB first by itself, as the two were fitted at the same time. Keen to know would it make the car less prone to understeer type behaviour on big and small roundabouts?

17" inch rims with 225/45/17 are definitely the best combination for an S2, in terms of comfort and looks, performance.

16" inch are too squeejy and don't took as good as 17".
18" inch are very hard, but look fantastic.
17" are the best compromise.

But I love the look of the Mk 1 S8s and so have come up with the following spec on the Avant to facilitate me having the harder ride of the S8s on a city daily driver.

At last, tell us I hear you say !

So it is as follows;

Front.

New standard bushes.
New standard bushes on forged wishbones.
Brakes are 314mm on brackets to allow small reds (work well, but would like 323mm or bigger to work even better and fill the S8s more).
New ball joints on the end of the steering arms, inner arm at the rack is original and std.
Ball joints at the outer end of the forged wishbone is new.
New cheap green std top mounts.

New Konis adjusted to full soft.
Old V6 2.6 B4 Coupe fwd with a/c front Springs.

New std bump stops, and the old accordion dust shrouds.
Front RS2 ARB, bushes are std.
Mk 1 S8 rims with 225/45/18 road legal Yokohama track tyres.
Look nice, wear out quickly, but seem to grip well in the dry, but not well in the wet, but can be fun once you are aware of how they will react.
Tracked and aligned three times at tyre centre with modern up to date kit over a period of a month just to be sure.


Rear. (Currently).

Original subfame / diff bushes.
New rubber lower wishbone bushes.
Forged upper wishbones with newish bushes, (no idea if these make a difference, but I feel better with them fitted)

Konis backed off to fully soft.
Std S2 rear springs. Std bump stops.

Am going to shortly fit B4q 2.8 rear springs to soften and lower the rear of the Avant.

The reasoning is that they will fit being quattro and bring a V6 they will be soft (comfortable) and being a saloon, rather than a load carrying spec Avant will be soft (lower).

Will post what happens when I've done it in few weeks, if anyone's still awake.

Rear wheels and tyres are naturally the same as the front.
Rear brakes are currently standard.

Tried the car as above with new S2 springs and the Konis on fully hard and it was much to stiff, tried it with the old S2 springs and the Konis set at half way and still too stiff, so put in the old V6 springs, mentioned above, with the Konis backed off to fully soft, and I think it's pretty good, the car also sits 20mm lower than standard and is able for the roads over here while still running 40 series 18" inch on daily basis.

So the car looks lowered, and handles well with 18" inch. Interested to see how others get on if they try this spec.

These factory springs from lighter B4s (sourced in the breakers) with new RS2 or S2 shocks could be of use to some people. Konis I think are stiffer even on a soft setting.

Hope some of the above is helpful to someone.



I'd agree with Steve's post above, and while Rusty makes the valid point about the impact of differences in unsprung weight, IMHO the most noticeable difference is the hardness of the spring, the shock and the profile of the tyre.

Light rims cost and smaller brakes don't look as good.

Last unrelated items to do for any new S2 owners are.
Fit HIDs to Ellipsoid headlights.
Change the drivers seat to a RS2 type bucket seat. The std seat does not hold a driver in place well enough even for normal driving in an S2.
Fit fresh wipers blades coming into the winter, they always work much better than old ones.
Fit a boost gauge in the centre vent.
Make sure your front wishbones bushes are as good as new. Don't tighten them when the car is jacked up and the wishbone is hanging down as the bush will "tear" when the car lowered back onto it's wheels.
Fit a fresh 14.5v regulator to your alternator.
Check your rubber/cloth vacuum hoses and replace them because looks can deceive.
Clean out the crud that will have built up in the breather system.
Change the fuel filter.
Change the Lambda probe.
Grease/oil door locks and hinges.
Search on the forum for how to adjust out the drop on the drivers door.
Fit a blind spot drivers mirror from a later model Cabrio. Just like a new car. Expensive if bought new, but could be worth it on the motorway.

Read this forum incessantly to bring your knowledge up to a good level on these cars as you have to take owning these cars seriously if you want to lessen the heartache and expense.

Kind regards to all who got to the end of this cathartic outpouring.

[newsh]

The Koni's on my setup are worse than the bilsteins, i can try changing the adjustment on them, they are about 1 turn from hardest, but at the moment i'm thinking of getting the bilsteins refurbed and fitted.

I really think you've got your konis wound up way too hard, I've been in an S4 with them wound up and it was terrible, I would consider un-driveable on anything but smoothest tarmac and that does not exist round here..

Shame its not quick to do but one turn from soft on front and 1/2 turn from soft on the back with stock springs is really good for the road and for a compromise not too shabby on the track, Rusty's been in the car round Coombe.. If I did more track time I'd try half a turn harder.

[Error404]

Very interesting - is anyone using this set-up over here?

Also worth considering getting the billies revalved to suit the H&R springs if they are being refurbed, since they are designed for use with stock springs, IIRC someone on the forum did this to good effect, can't remember who though

[VAP]

There's another option available to the European market that while doable in the states, comes at the additional cost of of BBSE's (Big-Bore Strut Extenders) but is P-N-P for you guys without BBSE's as your strut housings aren't swaged-down on the fronts, forcing you to use smaller-bore strut offerings.

It consists of using the "front" UrS Bilstein Sport or HD series struts in the front and/or rears of the B3 chassis cars, ie; sedans and coupes with OEM or aftermarket sport/lowering springs of your choice without doing a coilover conversion. They can also be used in the front of the B4 chassis. This matches perfectly with the concept posted above of "using the best struts money can buy with the OEM or aftermarket sport/lowering springs." In an 800-1,000lb lighter car the UrS struts tend to behave more like a well/mannered, re-valved Motorsport Bilstein but the lifetime warranty isn't compromised in the process. And the UrS Bilsteins are a straight-up-tit-for-tat swap into the Front/Rear 55mm B3 strut housings and/or the front B4 strut housings. Think of them as an RS2/S2 Bilstein that's pre-valved for a heavier car which allows them to work easier and with less accompanying heat which brings more control to the smaller chassis when driven hard, but remains compliant enough for daily-driver duty on oft-times bad pavement without the normal spine-compressing harshness of Konis or coilovers with heavy spring-sets.

Now with that said, there is a caveat, ie; those wanting to do this will have to find a work-around on their strut-mounts and upper spring perches. Spring perch requires drilling, boring or milling its 14mm dia bore to 17mm. No OEM strut-mount with a 14mm thrust bearing will accept the UrS strut with its 17mm shoulder just under the threads at the top of the hydraulic shaft. Pro-Mounts are ready-made specifically for this application but they are the "ONLY" off-the-shelf, pre-made strut mount option on the planet at the time of this posting specifically made to adapt UrS struts into the small-chassis Audi. Some here aleady run this setup on cars equipped with coilovers as I made them available to "you-know-who" thru "you-know-where" several years back for coilover applications. But to my knowledge no one in Europe has experimented with the large C-chassis UrS Bilsteins in the small-chassis Audi while retaining their OEM/aftermarket springs. And I think most here would be a little gape-jawed at the peformance-level and efficiencies this setup brings to bear without the draw-backs usually associated with more traditional, mid-level suspension upgades on "dual-use" cars. It just "might" be the most dynamic, best bang-for-the-buck option out there!

[Rusty]

I think the following might be worth a go:-

• Fit stock springs.
• Wind the Konis out a bit, say +2F +1.5R.
• Get some light wheels in 18x8 (TD PR 1.2 / OZ Ultraleggera / BBS RK etc.)
• Fit a stock 26mm or even a 25mm FARB but keep the RS2 for track.
  (not that I believe it improves handling).u
• t the Whiteline on soft (can go hard for track).
• Consider downgrading to 323 996 425/6 or 345 996 429/30 brakes to allow 17s with 225/45R17 (lighter, more compliant and more forgiving on cambered or rutted roads).

J[\list]ust m 2p HTH

[Sonic]

Cheers for the info lads, Rusty especially, sounds like you know the car as well as i do

You are of course absolutely spot on, and i realise i've actually ended up with a pretty well track-spec'd car that i now want to be perfect on the road. Funny as that was never the aim, infact quite the opposite. This is what the for-sale section does to you

The problem is i'm so far down the road that going back would mean a considerable amount of work.

I'm tied into 18" alloys with the brakes. I don't mind changing suspension before 'ring trips, and as you say the reps as well heavy.

The Koni's on my setup are worse than the bilsteins, i can try changing the adjustment on them, they are about 1 turn from hardest, but at the moment i'm thinking of getting the bilsteins refurbed and fitted.

That, or put the stock springs back on, and put the H&Rs on when heading to the 'ring.

Thing is i don't mind the s2 being a more track-orientated car, but at the moment it's at the point where i don't actually want to drive it because it's so bad on the roads, which is crazy.

I've got a head rebuild on the cards, along with finally having the wagner EM fitted and the RS2 exhaust cam, and some bodywork, but it looks like i need to put some serious thought into the suspension.

[rj scotty]

When I was looking for an s2 I drove two examples running 18" wheels and hated them, crashed around, tramlined all over the place not good. Then I drove and subsequently brought an example running 17" rims, much better. I know there are other factors involved hear but in my limited experience 17's work much better on the s2 than 18's.

cheers

rich

[Rusty]

Having tried a few things myself there are 2 things here. Road comfort and performance. Unfortunately, due to the small number of options for the S2 you're unlikely to get both from any setup.

Konis and stock springs were quite crashy if you wound the dampers up (+1.5F +1.0R) to give a good change of direction. This was combined with roll in longer corners so wasn't really great for track but worked OK on the road and was an improvement on stock dampers for performance driving. When loaded up on track it was OK, change of direction required forward planning.

HnRs with Konis wound up further (+0.5F +0.5R) works well on all but the bumpiest road and is purposeful so I can forgive the ride, it's not much worse than on stock with the Konis as above.

All stock will be nice and plush and at least you'll accept it's not a track star. The ring is bumpy so I doubt it'll show itself up too much.

Next are the areas you might not have thought of, namely wheels and tyres, brakes and ARBs.

Your 18s will kill the ride, especially on sudden impacts! Also, your Nuvolari reps will weigh 24kg min, over 5kg heavier per corner than stock Avus. This will play havoc with your undprung mass and as a result the ride will get worse as the spring and damper can't control the wheel as well.

Your brakes are upgraded front and rear. 365mm stoppers might look good and work well but they're seriously heavier than stock or say 314s, 280/300mm rears will weigh more too, a double hit on unsprung mass and thus ride. I'd estimate you're 10kg heavier per front corner than a stock car, that's a lot, 6-7kg rear too! This will also seriously affect performance. Some 20kg wheels will make the car feel much faster in the lower gears and ride & handle better! 5% on my 0-60 times going from 23kg/corner to 19kg.

Finally ARBs affect ride too. Big ARBs that are good for level cornering also remove axle articulation and thus ride quality... RS2 & Whiteline on yours? My 25mm rear bar is truly awful but I love the positive effect on handling so would go bigger still now I've track tested it with sticky rubber - S2 FARB, 26mm.

Afraid you've built a car for the track in terms of chassis hardware so it's going to ride like a track car. Changing one component will make a small change but as above, in most areas (except wheels) you have chosen performance parts and all items mentioned above remove ride quality so it'll take a few changes to add up to what it sounds like you want...

HTH

[newsh]

I'm on stock springs and Konis on the coupe. One turn from soft at the front and half a turn at the back

Best of both worlds and quicker in the wet than a stiffer setup

[Fat Audi 80]

I agree to standard springs and billy's :thumbs

Mine is on the same set up as Brian and although it can float occasionally and it would look a little better lowered, I can attack country lanes at 90 or 100mph without it bottoming out or crashing...

I feel lowering the car would enhance the looks a little but ruin the point to point speed of the car completely.

Cheers,

Steve.

[Acidburn]

I loved the koni's and stock springs on mine and have been out in a car with koni's and hnr's and found that fine

agree tho, billy's and hnr's is hospital treatment