Supercharged and turbocharged 5 cylinder engine

[jogi730]

Having recently put a bigger turbo on my car, the wow factor when it kicks in was quite something. Howvever, the lag you suffer is quite a trade off. Someone I talked to recently (wish I could remember who it was - it's my age ) told me of a 5 cylinder engine that had a big turbo with no lag whatsoever. It used a supercharger to achieve this. The car is a 5 cylinder Volvo.
I have been trying without success to find more infomation on this topic. Has anyone else heard about this? I guess the biggest problem would be the EM design?
Apart from anything else, this could be a good discussion topic. All comments (preferably sensible ones) welcome.
Cheers
Chris

[dan_b]

It doesn't help answer your question, but VW have done this in their current model range - a supercharger and a turbo, is it the Polo TSI?

[denniselbows]

i am sure there was a thread which included supercharing combined with a turbo i will try and think of the toppic and thread

[quattronutter]

lag is a drawback with big turbos,thats why i went with a bi turbo engine for my project after many 5 cylinder years

[Ian Simmonds]

There's a guy on the quattroforum who's been doing one, more as an 'on-off' project... Hasn't posted much about it lately though.

[Error404]

this is the holy grail of forced induction and hugely complex to get right.

the Lancia Delta S4 used compound charging for the first time i believe, the twin charge polo is the second production car to use the system, i think that speaks volumes about its massive development cost and complex set-up. it took Fiat-Lancia-Abarth race team years to perfect the system, who knows how long it had taken VAG to make it practical and reliable in a road car.

the main issue is the clutch you need on the supercharger to disengage in harmony with the turbo's spool up and boost delivery - a very very very complex challenge.

[AndersS2]

Having recently put a bigger turbo on my car, the wow factor when it kicks in was quite something. Howvever, the lag you suffer is quite a trade off. Someone I talked to recently (wish I could remember who it was - it's my age ) told me of a 5 cylinder engine that had a big turbo with no lag whatsoever. It used a supercharger to achieve this. The car is a 5 cylinder Volvo.
I have been trying without success to find more infomation on this topic. Has anyone else heard about this? I guess the biggest problem would be the EM design?
Apart from anything else, this could be a good discussion topic. All comments (preferably sensible ones) welcome.
Cheers
Chris

The car you are looking for is a darker orange swedish Opel (vauxhall) manta(?) with the coilovers sticking out of the bonnet. Some of our swedish friends on here know which one it is, and maybe they can help.
The car is well done and can not be seen as a "opel manta" anymore but more of a pure perfectionist-kit-car.




Edit: Here you go!

[SteveH]

The exhaust manifold wouldn't be a problem as the supercharger would be run off the engine via a pulley. The control and mapping of the two boost profiles from each unit would be fun though. Burn your credit cards before someone tells us they can do it.

[Error404]

Edit: Here you go!

Fook me, that thing looks a bit of handful in those videos

Some jaw dropping custom engineering has gone into that

[Puglife]

Most use a electronic magnet clutch for the supercharger drive pulley so at a certain RPM the magnet shuts off and the supercharger isn't driven, optimal at higher RPM when the turbo is doing the work and supercharger is working overtime...

http://www.superquattro.com/

Thats the website Ian is on about.

[quattro]

That manta is just a pure wheel spin machine!

Absolute perfectionist in the workmanship tho!

[Rusty]

Good idea Chris, no worries on EM design as supercharger is belt driven and so just needs to be plumbed into the inlet. You might need to bypass it to reduce drag or restriction when the turbo is going but it just requires some innovation. I've seen a fiesta with 300bhp and super-turbo chaged ness, they used a second TB that leaked ar between the SC and turbo, from memory it was actuated by a Sierra windscreen motor...

You'd have to play around with the location of radiators, alternators etc. but in the B2 engine bay there's got to be enough room. Should be able to run something like this off your aftermarket injection system too... Biggest problem is cost, it's going to be pretty horrendous... worth it though! :mischeif:

Of course you could just put the money into a 2.6 stroker and then get more of everything for much less effort

[jogi730]

After market fuel injection system? I think that was the K-Star on my TSR conversion
Just to add to all this, I did forget to mention that the car in question has the screw type charger, so even more expense I guess? But this does seem to have raised a few eyebrows and started some headscratching.
Cheers
Chris

[OOOO]

A lot of the cars that twincharge use the original 'roots' type charger as its the most readly available and provides instant boost. For just lag reducing reasons you could even look at Eaton m45's - they're used on the mini and clk 230 compressor. The bigger ones like m60 and m90 might not be necessary.
The even newer designed centifrugal type seem complete overkill and would not be suitable for our application as they have spool up time and CRAZY high end power - but we have turbos for that

One question i wondered about in the past when trying to learn about this was:
Will it require a remap if your car is already tuned with a bigger turbo?
Initially i thought of course it will, but keeping in mind that it has a completely mechanical function and all it does is force extra air into the IM. Therefore if your maf in relocated to pressure side and the supercharged air put through the maf before IM then surely is it not just picked up as more/ denser air and the fueling automatically adjusted by ecu?
(i could be missing something basic so it could be a dumb question)

-Sadiq

[dest]

I know its not the perfect answer, but when you had your bigger turbo fitted, did you get it remapped?
I dont mean a generic chip... a proper custom remap for that car/setup