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  • jogi730
    S2Forum Fiend
    • Jun 2004
    • 2335
    • Country: United Kingdom

    #1

    Books

    Some time ago, someone posted a title of a good book to read explaining properly how turbo engines work and differences from N/A engines. I have tried a search but not found anything.
    Can someone help please?
    Also maybe it would be a good idea to have a list of reference books which would be good/informative to read.
    Cheers
    Chris
    Audi 90 quattro (Typ 85)
    20v turbo conversion

    sigpic
  • Graham
    S2Forum Extremist
    • Jul 2003
    • 1622
    • Home: United Kingdom Current: Australia

    #2
    I dont know where it come from but here is the text:
    The following excerpts are from Jay Kavanaugh, a turbosystems
    engineer at Garret, responding to a thread on www.impreza.net
    regarding exhaust design and exhaust theory:
    “Howdy,
    This thread was brought to my attention by a friend of mine in hopes of shedding
    some light on the issue of exhaust size selection for turbocharged vehicles. Most of
    the facts have been covered already. FWIW I'm an turbocharger development
    engineer for Garrett Engine Boosting Systems.
    N/A cars: As most of you know, the design of turbo exhaust systems runs counter to
    exhaust design for n/a vehicles. N/A cars utilize exhaust velocity (not backpressure)
    in the collector to aid in scavenging other cylinders during the blowdown process. It
    just so happens that to get the appropriate velocity, you have to squeeze down the
    diameter of the discharge of the collector (aka the exhaust), which also induces
    backpressure. The backpressure is an undesirable byproduct of the desire to have a
    certain degree of exhaust velocity. Go too big, and you lose velocity and its
    associated beneficial scavenging effect. Too small and the backpressure skyrockets,
    more than offsetting any gain made by scavenging. There is a happy medium here.
    For turbo cars, you throw all that out the window. You want the exhaust velocity to
    be high upstream of the turbine (i.e. in the header). You'll notice that primaries of
    turbo headers are smaller diameter than those of an n/a car of two-thirds the
    horsepower. The idea is to get the exhaust velocity up quickly, to get the turbo
    spooling as early as possible. Here, getting the boost up early is a much more
    effective way to torque than playing with tuned primary lengths and scavenging. The
    scavenging effects are small compared to what you'd get if you just got boost sooner
    instead. You have a turbo; you want boost. Just don't go so small on the header's
    primary diameter that you choke off the high end.
    Downstream of the turbine (aka the turboback exhaust), you want the least
    backpressure possible. No ifs, ands, or buts. Stick a Hoover on the tailpipe if you
    can. The general rule of "larger is better" (to the point of diminishing returns) of
    turboback exhausts is valid. Here, the idea is to minimize the pressure downstream
    of the turbine in order to make the most effective use of the pressure that is being
    generated upstream of the turbine. Remember, a turbine operates via a pressure
    ratio. For a given turbine inlet pressure, you will get the highest pressure ratio
    across the turbine when you have the lowest possible discharge pressure. This
    means the turbine is able to do the most amount of work possible (i.e. drive the
    compressor and make boost) with the available inlet pressure.
    Again, less pressure downstream of the turbine is goodness. This approach
    minimizes the time-to-boost (maximizes boost response) and will improve engine VE
    throughout the rev range.
    As for 2.5" vs. 3.0", the "best" turboback exhaust depends on the amount of flow, or
    horsepower. At 250 hp, 2.5" is fine. Going to 3" at this power level won't get you
    much, if anything, other than a louder exhaust note. 300 hp and you're definitely
    suboptimal with 2.5". For 400-450 hp, even 3" is on the small side.”
    "As for the geometry of the exhaust at the turbine discharge, the most optimal
    configuration would be a gradual increase in diameter from the turbine's exducer to
    the desired exhaust diameter-- via a straight conical diffuser of 7-12° included angle
    (to minimize flow separation and skin friction losses) mounted right at the turbine
    discharge. Many turbochargers found in diesels have this diffuser section cast right
    into the turbine housing. A hyperbolic increase in diameter (like a trumpet snorkus)
    is theoretically ideal but I've never seen one in use (and doubt it would be
    measurably superior to a straight diffuser). The wastegate flow would be via a
    completely divorced (separated from the main turbine discharge flow) dumptube.
    Due the realities of packaging, cost, and emissions compliance this config is rarely
    possible on street cars. You will, however, see this type of layout on dedicated race
    vehicles.
    A large "bellmouth" config which combines the turbine discharge and wastegate flow
    (without a divider between the two) is certainly better than the compromised stock
    routing, but not as effective as the above.
    If an integrated exhaust (non-divorced wastegate flow) is required, keep the
    wastegate flow separate from the main turbine discharge flow for ~12-18" before
    reintroducing it. This will minimize the impact on turbine efficiency-- the introduction
    of the wastegate flow disrupts the flow field of the main turbine discharge flow.
    Necking the exhaust down to a suboptimal diameter is never a good idea, but if it is
    necessary, doing it further downstream is better than doing it close to the turbine
    discharge since it will minimize the exhaust's contribution to backpressure. Better
    yet: don't neck down the exhaust at all.
    Also, the temperature of the exhaust coming out of a cat is higher than the inlet
    temperature, due to the exothermic oxidation of unburned hydrocarbons in the cat.
    So the total heat loss (and density increase) of the gases as it travels down the
    exhaust is not as prominent as it seems.
    Another thing to keep in mind is that cylinder scavenging takes place where the
    flows from separate cylinders merge (i.e. in the collector). There is no such thing as
    cylinder scavenging downstream of the turbine, and hence, no reason to desire high
    exhaust velocity here. You will only introduce unwanted backpressure.
    Other things you can do (in addition to choosing an appropriate diameter) to
    minimize exhaust backpressure in a turboback exhaust are: avoid crush-bent tubes
    (use mandrel bends); avoid tight-radius turns (keep it as straight as possible); avoid
    step changes in diameter; avoid "cheated" radii (cuts that are non-perpendicular);
    use a high flow cat; use a straight-thru perforated core muffler... etc.”
    "Comparing the two bellmouth designs, I've never seen either one so I can only
    speculate. But based on your description, and assuming neither of them have a
    divider wall/tongue between the turbine discharge and wg dump, I'd venture that
    you'd be hard pressed to measure a difference between the two. The more gradual
    taper intuitively appears more desirable, but it's likely that it's beyond the point of
    diminishing returns. Either one sounds like it will improve the wastegate's discharge
    coefficient over the stock config, which will constitute the single biggest difference.
    This will allow more control over boost creep. Neither is as optimal as the divorced
    wastegate flow arrangement, however.
    There's more to it, though-- if a larger bellmouth is excessively large right at the
    turbine discharge (a large step diameter increase), there will be an unrecoverable
    dump loss that will contribute to backpressure. This is why a gradual increase in
    diameter, like the conical diffuser mentioned earlier, is desirable at the turbine
    discharge.
    As for primary lengths on turbo headers, it is advantageous to use equal-length
    primaries to time the arrival of the pulses at the turbine equally and to keep cylinder
    reversion balanced across all cylinders. This will improve boost response and the
    engine's VE. Equal-length is often difficult to achieve due to tight packaging,
    fabrication difficulty, and the desire to have runners of the shortest possible length.”
    "Here's a worked example (simplified) of how larger exhausts help turbo cars:
    Say you have a turbo operating at a turbine pressure ratio (aka expansion ratio) of
    1.8:1. You have a small turboback exhaust that contributes, say, 10 psig
    backpressure at the turbine discharge at redline. The total backpressure seen by the
    engine (upstream of the turbine) in this case is:
    (14.5 +10)*1.8 = 44.1 psia = 29.6 psig total backpressure
    So here, the turbine contributed 19.6 psig of backpressure to the total.
    Now you slap on a proper low-backpressure, big turboback exhaust. Same turbo,
    same boost, etc. You measure 3 psig backpressure at the turbine discharge. In this
    case the engine sees just 17 psig total backpressure! And the turbine's contribution
    to the total backpressure is reduced to 14 psig (note: this is 5.6 psig lower than its
    contribution in the "small turboback" case).
    So in the end, the engine saw a reduction in backpressure of 12.6 psig when you
    swapped turbobacks in this example. This reduction in backpressure is where all the
    engine's VE gains come from.
    This is why larger exhausts make such big gains on nearly all stock turbo cars-- the
    turbine compounds the downstream backpressure via its expansion ratio. This is also
    why bigger turbos make more power at a given boost level-- they improve engine VE
    by operating at lower turbine expansion ratios for a given boost level.
    As you can see, the backpressure penalty of running a too-small exhaust (like 2.5"
    for 350 hp) will vary depending on the match. At a given power level, a smaller turbo
    will generally be operating at a higher turbine pressure ratio and so will actually
    make the engine more sensitive to the backpressure downstream of the turbine than
    a larger turbine/turbo would. As for output temperatures, I'm not sure I understand
    the question. Are you referring to compressor outlet temperatures?
    The advantage to the bellmouth setup from the wg's perspective is that it allows a
    less torturous path for the bypassed gases to escape. This makes it more effective in
    bypassing gases for a given pressure differential and wg valve position. Think of it as
    improving the VE of the wastegate. If you have a very compromised wg discharge
    routing, under some conditions the wg may not be able bypass enough flow to
    control boost, even when wide open. So the gases go through the turbine instead of
    the wg, and boost creeps up.
    The downside to a bellmouth is that the wg flow still dumps right into the turbine
    discharge. A divider wall would be beneficial here. And, as mentioned earlier, if you
    go too big on the bellmouth and the turbine discharge flow sees a rapid area change
    (regardless of whether the wg flow is being introduced there or not), you will incur a
    backpressure penalty right at the site of the step. This is why you want gradual area
    changes in your exhaust."

    I have hoarded as many titbits of information off the forum since ye olde S2 central days, and my favourites list is Huge as i keep links to all usefull information posts from problems and solutions people have found.
    Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler.--:Albert Einstein

    Comment

    • Nuvo
      S2Forum Possessed
      • Nov 2003
      • 3825

      #3
      Hi Chris, Maximum Boost by Corky Bell is an often cited and recommended reference on here. See this thread for a few other titles that might be of interest to you.

      Comment

      • Smiley
        S2Forum Addict
        • Jun 2005
        • 329
        • Country: Germany

        #4
        Very interesting read!
        So I need a 3" downpipe and exhaust with a WG pipe from WG to just before the cats..
        '93 Audi S2 Avant panthero black, 412.000km
        '94 Audi S4 C4 Avant 303Tkm, KW, Brembos, BN-Pipes, Bose, S6 front (sold)
        '93 Audi S4 C4 Avant, 260Tkm
        '88 Audi 100 Avant turbo 44Q
        '84 Audi 80 quattro tornado red
        sigpic

        Comment

        • S2central.net
          Retired OG Mod
          • Jul 2003
          • 16590
          • Country: Northern Ireland

          #5
          This is useful if you aren't afraid of numbers... http://www.s2forum.com/forum/showthr...ight=turbology

          I have rough drafts for new improved versions of this - with fuel injector & pump sizing amongst other things. Could take a while to finish it, but should be good when its done...
          Paul Nugent
          Webmaster http://S2central.net
          Administrator http://S2forum.com

          1994 S2 Coupe ABY - aka Project Lazarus
          2001 A6 allroad 2.5TDi - family tank
          2003 S4 Avant 4.2 V8 - daily burble

          Purveyor of HomeFries and Exclusive agent for Samco hose kits (S2/RS2)

          There are only 10 kinds of people that understand binary - those that do, and those that don't

          Comment

          • jogi730
            S2Forum Fiend
            • Jun 2004
            • 2335
            • Country: United Kingdom

            #6
            That turbology link does not work
            Cheers
            Chris
            Audi 90 quattro (Typ 85)
            20v turbo conversion

            sigpic

            Comment

            • S2central.net
              Retired OG Mod
              • Jul 2003
              • 16590
              • Country: Northern Ireland

              #7
              Works for me - just tried it...
              Paul Nugent
              Webmaster http://S2central.net
              Administrator http://S2forum.com

              1994 S2 Coupe ABY - aka Project Lazarus
              2001 A6 allroad 2.5TDi - family tank
              2003 S4 Avant 4.2 V8 - daily burble

              Purveyor of HomeFries and Exclusive agent for Samco hose kits (S2/RS2)

              There are only 10 kinds of people that understand binary - those that do, and those that don't

              Comment

              • spink
                S2Forum Freak
                • Jul 2003
                • 4382
                • Country: England

                #8
                The webpage cannot be found
                HTTP 404
                Most likely causes:
                There might be a typing error in the address.
                If you clicked on a link, it may be out of date.

                What you can try:
                Retype the address.

                Go back to the previous page.

                Go to s2central.net and look for the information you want.

                More information

                Comment

                • denniselbows
                  S2Forum Maniac
                  • Mar 2007
                  • 740
                  • Country: United Kingdom

                  #9
                  just tryed it doesn't work me either
                  dennis
                  never set your expectations to high that way you are never disapointed

                  Comment

                  • Smiley
                    S2Forum Addict
                    • Jun 2005
                    • 329
                    • Country: Germany

                    #10
                    The link to the PDF doesn't work for me: s2central.net/turbology_V4.pdf
                    '93 Audi S2 Avant panthero black, 412.000km
                    '94 Audi S4 C4 Avant 303Tkm, KW, Brembos, BN-Pipes, Bose, S6 front (sold)
                    '93 Audi S4 C4 Avant, 260Tkm
                    '88 Audi 100 Avant turbo 44Q
                    '84 Audi 80 quattro tornado red
                    sigpic

                    Comment

                    • S2central.net
                      Retired OG Mod
                      • Jul 2003
                      • 16590
                      • Country: Northern Ireland

                      #11
                      Its fixed now - honest guv ... sorry !
                      Paul Nugent
                      Webmaster http://S2central.net
                      Administrator http://S2forum.com

                      1994 S2 Coupe ABY - aka Project Lazarus
                      2001 A6 allroad 2.5TDi - family tank
                      2003 S4 Avant 4.2 V8 - daily burble

                      Purveyor of HomeFries and Exclusive agent for Samco hose kits (S2/RS2)

                      There are only 10 kinds of people that understand binary - those that do, and those that don't

                      Comment

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