Power

[prj]

OK so if we agree on these points, don't call my information incorrect. Its purely a mis-communication issue.

One needs to decrease boost severely at higher RPMs on these cars with injectors that small. That is something that wasn't really discussed. I can see how that power can be made at lower RPMs, but it can't be carried into the higher RPMs. Thats all I'm saying. So what if you make 340hp if you only peak there for a short time? My claim was more of the fact that they wont make that power up higher in the RPMs. So we can agree there.

Look, I don't know how much experience you have with K26/K27, RS2, K26 hybrids and K24's, but they are NOT like the new turbos which flow better and can run high boost to redline.
That's EXACTLY how those turbos flow and are mapped. You get a high hit on midrange, and then you quickly taper off to redline. Otherwise you just start producing hot air and lose power.
Don't take my word for it. Look at the torque graph of _every_ car with a k26 hybrid or RS2 turbo. Notice a similarity?

This is why I said that 3B injectors are adequate with a small K26 hybrid.
Do not take my words out of context...
The turbo CAN'T make power in high RPM, so you don't need injectors that can... thus my original statement is correct, and your statement:

3b injectors do not flow enough for that much power unless you upped the fuel pressure a LOT. At that point I don't even know if they would open anymore.

Is not.

[loxxrider]

and to add to this, this is all pointless...just run a bigger injector if you are running standalone.

prj, I don't agree with your statement of an injector being "overkill." There is no such thing as injector being overkill at this point. I can show you an 1100cc injector (I have them in my car) that runs smoother and has lower latency than most 300cc injectors these days. The new EV14 Bosch technology is incredible.

[prj]

and to add to this, this is all pointless...just run a bigger injector if you are running standalone.

prj, I don't agree with your statement of an injector being "overkill." There is no such thing as injector being overkill at this point. I can show you an 1100cc injector (I have them in my car) that runs smoother and has lower latency than most 300cc injectors these days. The new EV14 Bosch technology is incredible.

I agree with what you said, but none of it applies in this case.
The reason I even suggested the 3B injector route, is because it is cheap and it works in this context. RS2 or 440cc injectors are a lot more expensive.

[T2Andy]

1.8 bar, my rs2 inj were £180 (cheap) might as well use them !

[loxxrider]

OK look, at this point, this is a battle of semantics. You are right in what you were thinking, and I am right in what I was thinking. I was saying that the injectors aren't enough for that kind of power...and I meant that its not enough for that power in the higher RPMs. I said nothing about turbo choice.

You were referring to making that power in the midrange hump, so you are correct there as well.

[Rikki Kitto]

Now now gentlemen keep calm it's only opinions after all

[prj]

OK look, at this point, this is a battle of semantics. You are right in what you were thinking, and I am right in what I was thinking. I was saying that the injectors aren't enough for that kind of power...and I meant that its not enough for that power in the higher RPMs. I said nothing about turbo choice.

You were referring to making that power in the midrange hump, so you are correct there as well.

Okay.
Just I don't really know a turbo that will make that power in the high-end.
All the older turbos behave as I described, thus the reason for everything I said and the initial disagreement.

Anyway, it's friday

[T2Andy]

Saying that "AFR are fine" so "my tune is fine" is very wrong. AFR is just a tool to control combustion chamber temperature. Fitting odd chips means you are not running as much boost as you could and not enough timing, which means you are lots down on power. That's why I said it custom map would be better

[loxxrider]

Okay.
Just I don't really know a turbo that will make that power in the high-end.
All the older turbos behave as I described, thus the reason for everything I said and the initial disagreement.

Anyway, it's friday

Agreed

but there are plenty of turbos that will make that power in the high end

[4WheelDrifter]

Is it possible to get a reliable 320 bhp from a standard ABY with just a chip and turbo?

The short answer is yes.

Just bolt on an RS2 turbo, and I believe s2central has chips for this. It was a simple mod back in ye olden days.
I'm guessing, as I think prj is, that you want to keep it as simple and/or cheap as possible.

Obviously there's always this thing and that thing you could do for safety/a little more headroom/for the hell of it. But before you know it you're running 700bhp with solid lifters, dry sump, girdle, so on.

[prj]

Agreed

but there are plenty of turbos that will make that power in the high end

Yes, but if they are "bolt on", then I don't know of many.
Perhaps the GT28RS hybrid... the rest make much more...
I mean, HX35 and GT2871R are not exactly 320bhp territory, but rather much more. Running them at that level would be a huge waste of $$$.

As 4WheelDrifter said, everything I have said is based simply on the assumption of getting "there" as cheap as possible. That is the reason for 3B injectors with AAN FPR and a small K26 hybrid.
If you have a bigger budget, then obviously none of this applies, but then there is also no reason to limit yourself to 320bhp.

[loxxrider]

Agreed

[Si Blythe]

Thanks guys for the comprehensive advice guys, I really appreciate it and it has certainly opened up a good debate.

I think it may be wise to add a little more information regarding my original post.

I sold my RS2 early last year - it was keyed twice, mis-engineered by Quattronics and resprayed! All this left me too scared to park it anywhere with a feeling of being "robbed" of the RS2 experience. However, even after a foray into the world of the BMW E30, the 5 cylinder itch never really left me.

I have since purchased an S2to get my fix and, as much as I would love an RS2, I don'y think they are worth on average 10k more. I do miss the driving characteristics of the RS I believe I can get close to them with the S2. The age old principle applies though that I woud like to do it as cheaply as possible with the caveat it must be reliable.

The car already has AP front brakes and a 3" SS exhaust and an MRC remap up to 280bhp so it is pretty quick already, certainly quick enough to lose your license. I am unsure as to wether I need to do the RS IC, air box, cam, injectors and EM to get the same drive or can I get "close" with just a custom turbo and remap and possibly injectors.

[prj]

Well, you can just stick 3B injectors and a slightly bigger turbo on, but it will be much better if you go for the full RS2 setup with the EM, IC injectors, cam etc...
The first one will be a very marginal upgrade, the second one will drive like your RS2 once did.

[macspring]

Hopefully a relevant post and not a hijack.

As mentioned in one of the posts above,

"I managed 335bhp with
RS2 injectors
Supersprint exhaust
K26 hybrid
Head work
044 fuel pump
RS2 air box
Rs2 intercooler
No air leaks !!
MTM soft wear
This is very reliable, but not cheap IMO but the performance is great compared to a chipped car only, loads more torque, i could add a hoffer spec hybrid to this spec and
take it to 400hp for another £600.
__________________ "

I thought, with my very limited knowledge, that for the amount of work in the spec above, the resultant 335bhp seemed a little low.

Is a K26 hydrid the same as an oem RS2 turbo with some work done to it?

@ Prj, If he stuck on a K26/2871 turbo with a well matched chip, (and maybe an RS2 down-pipe), would it not help him exploit the hidden potential of the existing spec AndyT2 has listed above?

By the way, speaking of newer turbos, what one would you suggest for Andy's spec?

Sorry to the op if this is a bit of a hijack, but hopefully it is still informative to most.

Thanks and kind regards.