#DieselGate

[PRY4SNO]

(Quote taken from quattroworld UrS4 forum)

The key issue here is one of fairness.

In the USA, there are three tiers of emissions regulations, one for light trucks, one for gasoline passenger cars, and one for diesel cars.

Gasoline cars are allowed to pollute MORE than diesel cars. Light trucks are basically given a pass and allowed to rule the roads even though they are the least efficient and most polluting category of vehicles. Diesel car emissions are not only the most stringently regulated but also standards that are rapidly and arbitrarily set to levels that some in the industry consider punitive.

The fact of the matter is that there is no level playing field for cars in the USA and foreign manufacturers are, through the use of arcane Federalization and emission standards, being restricted in the USA marketplace. The way it is done by the US government cleverly circumvents free trade agreements that the US is a party to. They are a barrier to entry to the USA market and that is why the USA and domestic car manufacturers prefer it that way.

I think he raises an interesting point. Also relevant to this line of thinking, how does one put an equivalent ratio on NOx emissions to CO2? Or, put another way, how do you make it so both gasoline and diesel engines emit have a maximum emissions output that is essentially equal?

Then you look at the quality of fuel. In North America our fuel is inferior to European fuel. It's probably time to stop subsidizing big oil's lofty profit margins with lax standards and really push for a reduction in harmful emissions through improved quality requirements at the refining stage.

And how about the way the mass media is reporting on the issue? Isn't it encumbent on journalists to approach this objectively? Instead of breaking down the over-arching system and how it works, and the different factors involved, they take the lowest common denominator to reach the largest audience. The scary environmental argument. They seem too apt to jump on the sensational angles (environment/corporate responsibility, etc) when framing the debate which leaves only one outcome: demonize VAG for hastening climate change. Meanwhile, GM intentionally sold flawed cars which resulted in FATAL accidents. The resulting penalties, meanwhile, were merely a (relative) slap on the wrist.

It will be interesting to see how things play out in the coming months. The only thing for sure, is this will be a circus... hopefully not a four-ringed one, at that

[fbatwork]

Couple quick comments... I agree 100% with North America manufactures getting off easy when compared to any foreign manufacture (at least over here)... Pry4sno's point on GM's latest scandal that has been attributed to 120ish fatalities... no charges will be laid. Ford / Firestone has also had similar situations.

I believe the last Toyota recall ended up in front of Congress...

On the fuel comment I totally disagree... I am not an engineer but here is my understanding on some key differences.

Generally, octane ratings are higher in Europe than they are in North America and most other parts of the world. This is especially true when comparing the lowest available octane level in each country. In many parts of Europe, 95 RON (90-91 AKI) is the minimum available standard, with 97/98 RON being higher specification (being called Super Unleaded). The higher rating seen in Europe is an artifact of a different underlying measuring procedure. In most countries (including all of Europe and Australia) the "headline" octane that would be shown on the pump is the RON, but in Canada, the United States and some other countries the headline number is the average of the RON and the MON, sometimes called the Anti-Knock Index (AKI), Road Octane Number (RdON), Pump Octane Number (PON), or (R+M)/2. Because of the 8 to 10 point difference noted above, this means that the octane in the United States will be about 4 to 5 points lower than the same fuel elsewhere: 87 octane fuel, the "regular" gasoline in Canada and the US, would be 91-92 in Europe. However most European pumps deliver 95 (RON) as "regular", equivalent to 90–91 US AKI=(R+M)/2, and deliver 98, 99 or 100 (RON) (93-94 AKI) labeled as Super Unleaded - thus regular petrol sold in much of Europe corresponds to premium sold in the United States and Canada.

[diesel des]

In terms of fuel quality I think it was diesel that was being talked about. Euro diesel is now ultra low sulpher and USA are still at least a factor higher at low sulpher. Also the centain rating is higher in Europe I believe.

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[Ross]

VW have been caught with their pants down on this one.... they will take a thrashing. A punishment is fair and necessary really - this is a huge scandal - but I expect it will be a big financial windfall for the US treasury... it will be billed as them killing the environment & giving an unfair competitive advantage with a multi billion dollar price tag attached to it. On the flip side, VW knew the potential fines/costs and threw the dice.

Interesting to see the comments from the US guys about how they'll be hammered for being non-US. I have seen how much protectionism goes on in the US in other markets. Typically through regulatory requirements, obviously leaked to the domestic competitors as they could always comply off the bat - clearly to (1) increase pressure to not comply and force a withdrawl from the US and (2) increase the costs of compliance making it non-viable. When I've commented on it, I've basically been told not to talk about it, just carry on like there's no elephant in the room...

From a consumer perspective I also expect to see a lot of 'shocked and appalled' people putting their damages claims in. But there's so much press about diesel being dirty, and everyone knows cars MPG (and it would follow that emissions too) are wildly optimistic - everyone's in it in that perspective - so it really should be no shocker to find your car puts out more than stated when you drive it! So I'd like to see them all get told to do one, but I'm sure VW will be expected to pay their 'dues'.

I have an Audi and a VW on the drive and this won't change it. That said I put my money with BMW for my main car this time round; the new 3.0d engine was the only BMW engine that complied with EU emissions when tested independently on the road. I bought it before reading that article but my evaluation was that BMW nailed the diesel drivetrain offerings for the last generation, and Audi are only just catching up. They need to put the BiTDI in the B9 A4 and I'll swap in a couple of years time... maybe

[bartolomeus]

OK I agree in Europe we have better fuel. I agree in USA there are tougher rules for diesel cars.
BUT the VAG group have also broken the rules in Europe and they are already banned from selling diesel cars in some countries.
And there are other diesel car manufacturers in USA that have managed to comply with the regulations of the US government.

I blame VAG for all of this, I find no excuse for their behavior. Also their sneaky way of cheating is incredible. And this is not the only way they cheat. They have started cheating in almost anything.

1) I read an article saying they have also tested their fuel consumption data and it seems their cars consumption is 50% higher (here I think though, that every car company lies)
2) A few years ago I was reading an article from the US, media complaining that VW showroom cars were inferior to the ones they sent to the media for review
3) They understate the HP of their engines. For example I had Skoda Octavia 3 RS and it had "220 HP" but in fact all dyno'ed ones made a 250 HP power figure. How does this help? Well imagine buying a 240 HP copetition brand car. And you make a little drag and the Skoda wins. And you say wow, I have 240 HP, the other guy had 220 HP, wow my car stinks and the Skoda is so cool.

[fbatwork]

I agree that they should "pay" for their sins so to speak - It will not affect my search for another diesel and maybe I will be able to take advantage of price adjustments that are likely coming.


ULS diesel in NA - 15 ppm and Europe is 10 ppm. This has been in place in both jurisdictions since 2006. Now if we are talking fuel quality people should be looking at things like ships - up to 1000 ppm no emissions for category 3 ships regulations comparatively speaking and huge volumes of fuel... this is the US.

Ok - I won't side track the thread anymore.

BURN THE WITCH!

[PRY4SNO]

My comment about quality of fuel had less to do with effective octane ratings than it did with quality. The Euro fuels are more highly refined and burn cleaner, and give more mpg's.

Next time you're in the States, check it out for yourself. Just last month I noticed a massive difference in fuel quality in the US compared to here. Normally I'm lucky to get 610km per tank of mostly hwy driving on my UrS4. Down there I hit 650km on 3/4 of a tank, consistently. This is using 91 octane; 92 and 94 were slightly better (though not a lot). Considering the trunk was crammed with camping gear and luggage and the back seat also somewhat loaded, the weight penalty didn't affect my mileage one bit.

I've long suspected our local fuel is lower quality than the US (and elsewhere, like BC and Ontario, etc) because our primary feedstock comes from the oilsands, which has a high concentration of sulphur from the get-go.

[Gazmitchell]

I run a vw T5 bi turbo which I believe is one of the engines affected so will see whats what when contacted I guess ....

[chiefmechanic]

Diesel gate

Do you think there's any chance audi would have a map for my de catted s4 with a stainless exhaust. I can't get it below .7 for the emission test.

[Rubberdubber]

Here's an interesting thought, if the resolution is to recall vehicles for an ECU flash to remove the rogue software and decrease performance etc to meet with the requirements, would you want your car recalled? Like some above I can see and appreciate the lateral thinking aspect of what they have done and if it helps me get through MOT tests here in the UK then I would rather keep it as it is, if that will be possible.

[Tonybolony]

Ever since this whole thing kicked off last week, I've been wondering how the ECU can give out alleged incorrect readings, and until now, no-one knew about it?
What I heard today somewhat makes the whole thing understandable, ie whilst under test conditions the Ecu realises there is no steering input, and consequently reduces the fuel input as it assumes it is being tested.....
Well it makes sense to me.

I also wonder if this is the reason that a number of modern Diesels (My own A6, and every one of the T5's we have on the forecourt) will only rev to 2500 ish even with a buried pedal, when standing still????

One other thing- I seem to remember reading a Road Test a several years ago regarding a certain unnamed Japanese manufacturer whose Petrol engined test vehicle appeared to Lean Off (and consequently flat-spot) at 56 and 70Mph - the very speeds which are relevant to official MPG figures.

If there were to be a vote on whether other manufacturer's were about to be found to be doing just the same- then I'd be voting Yes, Definately (but that's just My opinion)

[bartolomeus]

I did post an youtube video earlier explaining how they cheat and how they intend to fix the problem:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=250&v=2jQ3Swai4Ts

[HenryG40]

I did post an youtube video earlier explaining how they cheat and how they intend to fix the problem:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=250&v=2jQ3Swai4Ts

Is that video supposed to be a joke?

[sidrick]

Rubberdubber - The theory is that if they 'fix' the issue then your performance will suffer, but if you (if you're allowed) to say no to the fix then it's likely your car will have to be placed in a very different tax bracket. Either way, the customer won't be happy.

It's hugely interesting to see what they'll do, as frankly, they're ****ed financially regardless. This kills VW in the US. There's talk about retrofitting some SCR injection system that's used on the Passat here (I don't know if it's the same in the UK), but that system seems to be the cause of mass recalls here as it is.

[Rubberdubber]

I have an A4 Avant which is already tuned. I doubt the software is much like the factory one in any case and that any defeating software still exists. Obviously it has cost me some money to get it to this stage and I certainly don't want it returned to standard, regardless of what this means. It strikes me that loads of other will be in the same boat and I can't see compensation being paid for money lost before or after the recall.
I also noticed the T5 thing and wondered the same