Highly boosted engine - University Project

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  • hunker7
    S2Forum Possessed
    • Mar 2014
    • 3487
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    #1

    Highly boosted engine - University Project

    Hi guys. I am currently doing project on engine modelling, more specifically highly boosted engines (EcoBoost for instance). I have chosen a 5 cylinder 2.2 we are all familiar with

    My projects' aim is to model the engine using GT-Suite software, and then explore the operating limits of such highly boosted engine.

    Currently I'm doing my literature review, and I need to look into things that limit how much you can boost the engine (knock, EGT...anything else?) and come up with suggestions in regards to downsizing the engine?

    Any help would be appreciated
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  • Kryptonite
    S2Forum Fanatic
    • Aug 2010
    • 63
    • Country: Germany

    #2
    Hey,

    do you have a good combustion model of the engine? This is the main step to do such analysis.
    You need a lot of engine measurements with cylinder pressure analysis to calibrate your GT model regarding knocking.
    What`s your main target of the project? "Downsizing" the engine could have different targets like the low end torque, rated power or time to torque.

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    • hunker7
      S2Forum Possessed
      • Mar 2014
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      #3
      Originally posted by Kryptonite
      Hey,

      do you have a good combustion model of the engine? This is the main step to do such analysis.
      You need a lot of engine measurements with cylinder pressure analysis to calibrate your GT model regarding knocking.
      What`s your main target of the project? "Downsizing" the engine could have different targets like the low end torque, rated power or time to torque.
      I have the engine model itself, but it hasn't been yet properly set up.



      Project aim is to explore limitation such heavy turbocharging enforces on the engine operation (not entirely sure what they could be at this point).
      '93 Audi 100 Avant - R.I.P
      '92 Audi UrS4 Avant - SOLD
      '93 Audi UrS4 Avant
      '15 Audi A7 quattro 3.0 TDI

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      • Error404
        Super Moderator
        • Mar 2007
        • 19789
        • Country: United Kingdom

        #4
        I think what he is saying is that you will need some detailed flow data for the ports and combustion chamber, and flame front propagation etc in order for your model to be useful. I guess fir the purposes of the project it is kind of irrelevant as you are exploring the cause and effect rather than specific engine characteristics
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        • hunker7
          S2Forum Possessed
          • Mar 2014
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          #5
          Originally posted by Error404
          I think what he is saying is that you will need some detailed flow data for the ports and combustion chamber in order for your model to be useful. I guess fir the purposes of the project it is kind of irrelevant as you are exploring the cause and effect rather than specific engine characteristics
          Oh I understand. Yes, I chose to base research on 5 cylinder engine, but it's not about this specific engine.
          '93 Audi 100 Avant - R.I.P
          '92 Audi UrS4 Avant - SOLD
          '93 Audi UrS4 Avant
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          • andy10v
            S2Forum Zealot
            • Mar 2009
            • 5996
            • Country: Scotland

            #6
            Originally posted by hunker7

            Currently I'm doing my literature review, and I need to look into things that limit how much you can boost the engine (knock, EGT...anything else?) and come up with suggestions in regards to downsizing the engine?

            Any help would be appreciated
            Fuel octane, IAT; turbocharger heat/intercooler efficiency, pre ignition, detonation, compression ratio, material failure due to the forces exerted by increased boost pressure? Heat dissipation. Combustion chamber design.

            What do you mean by downsizing? Smaller capacity, eg destroke it?
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            • hunker7
              S2Forum Possessed
              • Mar 2014
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              #7
              Originally posted by andy10v
              Fuel octane, IAT; turbocharger heat/intercooler efficiency, pre ignition, detonation, compression ratio, material failure due to the forces exerted by increased boost pressure? Heat dissipation. Combustion chamber design.

              What do you mean by downsizing? Smaller capacity, eg destroke it?
              Thanks, had some of the thing you suggested written down, but now there are more to research

              By downsizing I mean make it a smaller capacity engine but boost the hell out of.

              For instance, 3 cylinder ecoboost runs 1.6bar boost.
              '93 Audi 100 Avant - R.I.P
              '92 Audi UrS4 Avant - SOLD
              '93 Audi UrS4 Avant
              '15 Audi A7 quattro 3.0 TDI

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              • andy10v
                S2Forum Zealot
                • Mar 2009
                • 5996
                • Country: Scotland

                #8
                So are you currently doing a lit review on small capacity, high output engine boost limits, leading onto a project on 20vt modelling?
                Current-2004 Impreza PPP wagon

                Sold-92 3B coupe-RS2+, 996s, konis, rear torsen, forged rods........
                Sold ABY-stock

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                • hunker7
                  S2Forum Possessed
                  • Mar 2014
                  • 3487
                  • Home: Latvia Current: United Kingdom

                  #9
                  Only small part of the lit review will be about highly boosted engine, majority is about turbo technology that's available, SI engines and background on software.

                  When talking about turbo technology I need to talk about limitations of turbocharging, things other people have found out and published in regards to this topic. After I go and do my own research and show my findings.
                  '93 Audi 100 Avant - R.I.P
                  '92 Audi UrS4 Avant - SOLD
                  '93 Audi UrS4 Avant
                  '15 Audi A7 quattro 3.0 TDI

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                  • diesel des
                    S2Forum Possessed
                    • Feb 2004
                    • 3896

                    #10
                    Turbine drive pressure vs intake pressure is important. This is why many diesel setups use compound Turbos e.g. a large turbo compressor feeding a second smaller turbo compressor in series. And on the exhaust side a small turbine feeding a big turbine in series. This way the pressure ratio is compounded. Big boost with low back pressure.

                    I did this on a Tdi golf many years ago. When sizing Turbos approx a corrected flow rate factor of 2 is a good starting point for the bigger turbo e.g. the big turbo can flow about twice the smaller turbo.

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                    • Klobsters
                      S2Forum Enthusiast
                      • Dec 2012
                      • 162
                      • Home: Latvia Current: United Kingdom

                      #11
                      I won't be any help but may I ask you where are you studying?
                      1994 Audi 80 Competition

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                      • hunker7
                        S2Forum Possessed
                        • Mar 2014
                        • 3487
                        • Home: Latvia Current: United Kingdom

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Klobsters
                        I won't be any help but may I ask you where are you studying?
                        University of Leeds
                        '93 Audi 100 Avant - R.I.P
                        '92 Audi UrS4 Avant - SOLD
                        '93 Audi UrS4 Avant
                        '15 Audi A7 quattro 3.0 TDI

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                        • Klobsters
                          S2Forum Enthusiast
                          • Dec 2012
                          • 162
                          • Home: Latvia Current: United Kingdom

                          #13
                          I'm not that far away in Newcastle then. Will be taking a plane from Leeds when going home for Christmas. BTW, I might send you some questions about driving a Latvian registered car here when I have some time.
                          1994 Audi 80 Competition

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                          • PRY4SNO
                            S2Forum Maniac
                            • Mar 2009
                            • 767
                            • Country: Canada

                            #14
                            One of the silent masses here.


                            Reading. Learning.
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                            1992 80q 20v /// Eventual AAN'd Winter Sled
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                            • Kryptonite
                              S2Forum Fanatic
                              • Aug 2010
                              • 63
                              • Country: Germany

                              #15
                              Originally posted by diesel des
                              Turbine drive pressure vs intake pressure is important. This is why many diesel setups use compound Turbos e.g. a large turbo compressor feeding a second smaller turbo compressor in series. And on the exhaust side a small turbine feeding a big turbine in series. This way the pressure ratio is compounded. Big boost with low back pressure.

                              I did this on a Tdi golf many years ago. When sizing Turbos approx a corrected flow rate factor of 2 is a good starting point for the bigger turbo e.g. the big turbo can flow about twice the smaller turbo.

                              Sent from my LG-H955 using Tapatalk
                              You can't compare any high boosted diesel- with a gasoline engine.
                              The combustion of those engines is very different, especially you haven`t any knock problem with diesel.
                              Basically leads a high turbine upstream pressure to a high level of knocking on gasoline engines.
                              Knocking is different from engine to engine. -> You need a very good combustion model from the engine including a knock controller.

                              I think in the first step, you should set up a few limitations:
                              -turbo speed
                              -compressor outlet temperature
                              -temperature intake manifold
                              -cylinder peak pressure
                              -pressure turbine upstream / peak pressure at the exhaust ports
                              -temperature turbine upstream


                              In GT-Power you could easily scale the turbo-maps up and down. Play with this function learning by doing

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