Small RS2 hybrid

[Rusty]

Eric, that's exactly what I'm trying to do with this thread. Bolt on turbo with a generic map from Paul and still utilising all the S2 stuff...

[Jamo]

Personally I've never seen the benefit in expenditure of adding an rs2 ic or em to get an extra potential 10 hp when I'm already at 330ish and I know the first limiting factor to performance is the injectors.

Because the IC isn't about BHP it's about reducing charge temperature. The lower the temp the better the performance and the lower the risk of detonation.

IMO it's not wise to run 300 bhp with a stock IC when your charge temperatures are going to be high.

You will see a difference in car pickup and generally performance with a better and right sized intercooler.

[s2driveruk]

Because the IC isn't about BHP it's about reducing charge temperature. The lower the temp the better the performance and the lower the risk of detonation.

IMO it's not wise to run 300 bhp with a stock IC when your charge temperatures are going to be high.

You will see a difference in car pickup and generally performance with a better and right sized intercooler.

But there is not assertion from Eric that he is experiencing knock or degredation in performance from high charge temps? Sounds like he's got a heathly motor with reliable performance from a hybrid setup...

[ericd]

Because the IC isn't about BHP it's about reducing charge temperature. The lower the temp the better the performance and the lower the risk of detonation.

IMO it's not wise to run 300 bhp with a stock IC when your charge temperatures are going to be high.

You will see a difference in car pickup and generally performance with a better and right sized intercooler.

Your entitled to your opnion mate, what's the variance in high charge temperature in these circumstances ? I just don't think a standard i/c is a limiting factor in these setups, btw when's that "show pony" of yours gonna hit the rollers

[Jamo]

But there is not assertion from Eric that he is experiencing knock or degredation in performance from high charge temps? Sounds like he's got a heathly motor with reliable performance from a hybrid setup...

Yes but if he had a larger sensibly sized IC that wouldn't increase lag. it would be even better, that's a fact.

The lower the charge temp the better the performance.

[Jamo]

Your entitled to your opnion mate, what's the variance in high charge temperature in these circumstances ? I just don't think a standard i/c is a limiting factor in these setups, btw when's that "show pony" of yours gonna hit the rollers

It's not opinion it's tuning fact. Not all performance figures are quantified in BHP.

Show Pony?

[s2driveruk]

Yes but if he had a larger sensibly sized IC that wouldn't increase lag. it would be even better, that's a fact.

The lower the charge temp the better the performance.

no, i get the cooler charge equals more performance arguement...and i get the bigger might equal better. What I was pointing out was that it seems his setup works well WITHIN those constraints.

As is always the case in this type of argument, it's before/after performance that will justify money invested. Sure if you are operating outside an efficient area of performance for any given setup, throwing money at it for bigger/better will help....just to me it doesn't sound necessarily like the case on this one.


Actually, would be interested to know if there is a forumla now that suggests what the correct cubic capacity of an IC should be for certain power to see what the delta actually is.

[ericd]

It's not opinion it's tuning fact. Not all performance figures are quantified in BHP.

Show Pony?

let's have the facts then, still waiting on your factual opinion of what a high charge temp is on std i/c compared to that on a rs2 item, (I'll give you a few mins to go and read up on that ), no doubt it'll be in that tuning oracle you've been quoting from earlier.

[Jamo]

I have answered Eric's assumption that you don't need a better IC for the setup. My response says any setup can benefit from a better IC.

I can prove it in BHP terms as I had Coupe running a K24, pre RS2 IC it was 267 bhp post RS2 IC it was 278 bhp on a homefry map.

But the biggest thing was the car hit harder on acceleration as the torque increased.

Andy_Casey only gained 3 bhp however but then he was closer to 300 bhp and the turbo limit where it will produce a lot of hot air.

[Jamo]

let's have the facts then, still waiting on your factual opinion of what a high charge temp is on std i/c compared to that on a rs2 item, (I'll give you a few mins to go and read up on that ), no doubt it'll be in that tuning oracle you've been quoting from earlier.

Phone MRC, speak to Doug about the S4's with side mounted vs front mounted IC and the difference in charge temps and perfomances smart ****

Lupo911 Intercooler upgrade and diagram is another great example.

[Rusty]

Erm this is a thread about TURBOS!!! If you want to discuss ICs then do it on a relevent thread

As for my 3bhp increase, the ABY has a temperature compensation function so my cooler air intake temps off the RS2 IC will have then been countered by the OE Audi software. I have been informed that the 3B and ADU don't have this.

The idea of the small hybrid is that it works with as much S2 stuff as possible (like Eric was championing) and thus is a nice cheap upgrade for when people are needing a k24 rebuild. It's not about power, massive torque, lag or anything else. Gut feel is that a stock IC will do just fine, stock injectors and stock EM too. Be nioce to have a turbo that hung on a touch longer although my mods have made the k24 feel less asthmatic than an OE car.

[S2central.net]

Can I suggest everyone takes a chill pill before this argument descends into a full riot

I think everyone is more or less on the same page and arguing about semantics here...

Lower IAT always produces more power - assuming the ECU isn't doing anything 'clever' to counteract it. For example - you could fit an RS2 IC onto an otherwise standard ABY and achieve very little additional power. Reason being the ECU reduces boost with colder air so as to level out performance. If it stays within the same temp zone where boost is unaffected, then a little extra power comes from having colder air. Up until recently I have followed that trend in the generic ABY upgrades, but Andy has been testing out an alternative (RS2 like) approach which keeps boost consistent across IAT.

On a Nothelle special like Erics - I dunno if it has a bigger IC than ABY and I'd need to see the chips to know if it behaves like ABY or RS2 in this department.

A bigger IC is only worthwhile on any turbo install if the air temps are excessively high... I know I've seen well in excess of 40 celsius on some hot runs in the summertime - the white hot heat of Belfast... So I'd be confident to say that a good IC upgrade on the K24 (or a hybrid thereof) would be worthwhile - thats a bigger IC and ECU software that can actually make use of it.

True enough the ABY is limited to approx 320bhp on stock injectors and FPR. Again not sure what the Nothelle machine is there but suspect its ABY injectors - which is about right for Nothelle performance from memory.

I for one am no believer in some of these huge IC upgrades just for the sake of it. The AAN has a very small IC in factory form - like the ABY - it can only benefit properly from a decent FMIC with the right ECU tweaks.

[S2central.net]

The 3bhp upgrade that Andy mentions was with the normal generic upgrade software. I don't yet have any dyno data for the alternative approach - just the butt dyno - and a boost guage which confirms the theory. Some G-Tech based before and after should be forthcoming soon... On mine with stock IC, then an RS2 IC that has been collecting dust for waaaay too long.

Paul

[HPmuirt]

I know that this is a turbo discussion and I have no wish to join Eric and Jamo's mines bigger than yours arguement but I thought the following might be interesting (calculated at pressure = 990 mb (29.235 Inches-Hg), 25 degrees ambient and 0% relative humidity)

Then using the max intake temps from the Wagner vs standard IC plot above (Wagner = 58 and OEM = 80 Degrees C) then the engine power as a % of max power (where max power is when intake temp = ambient temp)

Wagner = 95.4% max engine power
OEM = 90.5% max engine power

I know the plot abot was run at 30 Degrees ambient but this is just to show the effect of having a decent IC.

Cheers n

Si

[Rusty]

'tis good information and shows why it's a good idea to have a larger IC.

This turbo will benefit from all the usual turbo tuning upgrades, IC, EM, exhaust, Samcos, RS2/other airbox/filter... however, the idea is that the minimum of them are absolutely necessary.