Dry Sump Info

[S2central.net]

Every now and then, like most of you, I look at the wish-list for an S2 project car and wonder what else I could add...

Was thinking today about a dry sump system - not for a road going car really - but just curious to know if anyone could point to any good resources on designing such a setup for an engine like ours and how key components are sized and selected.

Am I right in saying that a mechanical oil pump, and the mechanical losses from the crank driving it, can be deleted with a dry sump system - as an electrical pump does the work instead.

Got me wondering if the coolant pump could also be replaced by an electrical item - such that the mechanical pump could be relegated to an idle pulley - decreasing lost energy further...

Just wondering... after a bottle of wine on a Sunday afternoon...

You know its never meant to happen though... the lottery machines were broken down at the local supermarket yesterday. Dammit Beavis !



Paul

[Corey]

If any use?
I saw at Dialynx a 10v rally replica being built that was being dry sumped.
It used the standard sump, it had had tubes for pickup welded into it.
The pump had been replaced with just a blank ally plate, with it machined to accept the seal obviously.
If you were to dry sump an I5 you could lower the engine further, coupled with moving it back towards the bulkhead and have a better handling beast in the process!!! If you were to put the tanks and pumps towards the rear for better weight distribution.
I agree, it is amazing what you conjure up while having a bottle (or 2!!!) of red wine
Anything is possible, otherwise we would still be driving Model T's???

[Stick Insect]

I went to sheffield in 1990, I was intent on buying a genuine TR8 rally car. It was a spare/recce car for British Leyland. Full safety devices roll cage, 4 x 48 DCOE webbers on swan necked manifold. Volvo Rockers and all sorts of trick things. Hugh arches and 13"rear minilites It was an amazing bit of kit, it was only £5,500.

Anyway, back to the post the engine had a highly modified sump with a rear facing oil pick up pipe. This led to an oil seperator stack/sump tank in the boot. There were 2 pumps one was the evacuation/windage pump and the other was the pressure pump. They were driven by toothed belts and a bit prone to failure I thought.

The car reminded me of a short quattro I saw at the NEC in the 80's it had the sump tanks in the boot as well as the radiators etc.

I didn't buy it as I couldn't fit in the drivers seat

Any way what would I have done with a 320Bhp V8 tarmac rally car?

Bought the 20V Coupe 2 months later instead....

David

[S2central.net]

Thats another advantage of dry sumping - you can distribute the weight of tanks and pumps to the rear. This is primarily why the works rally quattros went down that route - its an awful lot of plumbing to the wrong end of the car but the gains in balance and roadholding must be worth having in a competition environment.

Ever see footage of the quattros flying on the mega-yumps in the scandinavian rallies - beautifully balanced in 'flight' ? ... Not that I aspire to such insanity, but hey I like it when theory is put into practice !



Paul

[Graham]

S2 Central.net wrote:

Ever see footage of the quattros flying on the mega-yumps in the scandinavian rallies - beautifully balanced in 'flight' ? ... Not that I aspire to such insanity, but hey I like it when theory is put into practice !

I have seen the Pikes peak event when the americans were awestruck by the sheer speed of the Audi Quattro over gravely terrain, and it blew the competition into the dust-----Awsome
Graham

[Stick Insect]

I have a late eightees video called 'Group B what now' . It is about the last glory days of group B rallying. Lancia Delta Integrales, rs200 etc.

There is a scene where a late spec short quattro is blagging along the gravel roads in Tuscany, the evening sun is setting, the clouds of dust are rising behind the car. Walter Rhorl is dancing acrosss the pedals the road he's driving along is filled with exited Italian rally fans, the road magically clears and refills once he's gone.

Seeing things like that have a bad effect on a young man.

I wonder if Pisobiker was watching that?

The same year I was near Buxton in the pouring rain, my friends car had broken down. We never got to see the stages but saw a few cars driving between the special stages.

Not quite the same

David

[Pisobiker]

No Dave, I was not watching it.
I actually did not have the pleasure of being present on an event out of the World Rally Championship, which would be really nice. Usually rally events take place in Italian regions a bit far from where I live, such as "Sardinia", "Sicily" and up North, next to the French and Switzerland border.
Around here usually we have track events (there is a small track hosting some italian and european motorcycling, ITC and Formula 3 championships) and some "tarmac hill climb" races.

Marco


P.S. I discovered yesterday that one of my friends is repairing the "Restaurant Truck" of the official Mitsubishi WRC team, because the main chef of the team lives here
Unfortunatly he didn't get the "work-shop" truck, otherwise I think Mitsubishi would have experienced a robbery...... and my garage would have experienced a wonderfull "upgrade"

[Stick Insect]

Marco, I must try and find where it was. It may have been San Remo?

The scenery behind was tall cypress trees, vinyards and hill top villages and scenery which looked very much like Tuscany ( not that I've been).

I know it's dodgy but maybe someone could transfer it from my video to a web site. It's wonderful. any offers?

A friend of mine worked for Prodrive on their Mondeo Touring cars, their Ferrari project and now works fo BAR F1. The trucks they have are beyond belief. I could happily live in one

I would love to have seen Jean Ragnotti in the Renault 5 maxi turbo 4x4 on the Corsican tarmac rally in '85. That would hev been worth seeing. The Audis were a bit big for that event. size does matter!.

D.

[dan_b]

Was wondering, what is a dry sump?
And similarly, what's an "oil catch tank"?

What are the advantages of both of these mods that people here talk about?

I've got a lot to learn!

[Stick Insect]

Dan, Dry sump is as it says on the tin

The engine oil is sucked out of the sump an stuck in an external tank (the catch Tank). This has baffles and dividing walls which seperates the oil from the froth ( reverse cappucino effect).
advantages:
1/ The crank is hitting a puddle of oil everytime it spins round ( more power)
2/ Oil feed starvation problems are reduced as the oil is pumped from a large tank and not stuck agains the wall of the sump furthest from the oil pickup pipe.

disadvantages:
1/ cost: you need to buy lots of kit pumps, tanks etc.
2/ you need to find where to stick the pumps, tanks etc.
3/ requires more oil as the lines hold oil etc.
4/ weight of all the bits

HTH
David.

[dan_b]

Aah...
Do (m)any production cars come with dry sumping as standard, or is it purely the reserve of race-specials?

[Stick Insect]

A friend of mine bought a car direct from the factory with dry sump. It was a Caterham with 1600 Ford crossflow. Maybe some of the exotics lambo, Bugatti etc. may come with it.

None that I know of though.

D.

[s2avant]

The Bugatti 16/4 Veyron has a dry sump system. Not quite a run of the mill production car though.

Tom Hammonds used to use a dry sump system on his hill climb group B quattro. Then again money wasn't an object for his cars.

Ben

[Vagsport]

Porsche 911 n/a and turbos '86> have dry sump lubrication.

Siena

[91_S2]

The 911, flat 6 motors are dry sump. There is an aux oil tank that works as the catch tank. Additionally, since the 911 is in effect oil cooled, there is a loop from the catch tank out to a oil cooler at the front of the car. An oil change takes 11 liters of high grade oil.

Racing 911's have double pick up suction pumps in order to scavenge the sump even when in high G turns. The street versions only have a single pick up.

You will find real whacko's who "knife edge" the crank in order to lighten it and to decrease windage as it moves through the air. As someone mentioned, there is not much oil that it is passing through.

You gotta love whackos!