Mid Engine W12 6.0 1953 Oval RHD Beetle

[RS2]

I've been thinking about doing the following with one of my projects. A 1953 Oval RHD Beetle with Phaeton W12 mid-mounted.

I want to keep it looking stock apart from ride height and wheels.

This was how it looked last time it was on the road.



I'm quite happy to have vents similar to your rear window vents and hope to use the rear vent under the window as the exit.

I'll use the original Phaeton radiator as the fans are ECU controlled.

MG

[Jamo]

Did I read that right a W12 in a beetle??????????

[RS2]

Did I read that right a W12 in a beetle??????????

Yes... and yes, I am mad

MG

[martinws]

Yes... and yes, I am mad

MG

Only officially mad if you plan to nail a gaggle of turbos onto it!



Ps. Start another thread on this little bug please!

[Christophski]

Wow! This beetle needs a thread of its own on here... I'm an aircooled nut having had a few, built one and part started on another one.... A w12 one? We need details and pics lol

[Jamo]

This is so bonkers it deserves a project thread, please RS2 add some general / build pics

[K Simmonds]

This is so bonkers it deserves a project thread, please RS2 add some general / build pics

Indeed, I want more details, sounds mental!

[RS2]

Ok ok, I wasn't expecting this but I'll put some details up

First off, this is a long term project so please, do not expect things to move quickly! We're about to move house though and hopefully I'll have it in the new garage which is next to our new house rather than 160 miles away in storage!

Until things start to move, here are a few details.

This is how I bought the bug back in 1996.



It was way beyond restoration to 'original' as the engine, gearbox and chassis had all corroded heavily and were fit for scrap.

I ran it for a while with a new later chassis running IRS, Porsche 944 brakes (inc 911 servo & mc), Type 4 2.0 with 911 fan setup and a 5 speed 901 gearbox.

Then I got bored of it being too noisy, slow and not handling well enough so I sold the rolling chassis with all of the running gear.

I bought a set of 928S4 front suspension arms, hubs and brakes and I currently have a choice of 993 rear and 996 rear suspension setups but I may yet change my mind on that and go for 986 (Boxster) rear suspension as it's designed for a mid-engined seutp so should handle better than the 993 and 996 setups which are designed for rear engined weight handling.

I'd be searching for an engine that had a minimum of 400bhp but not turbo'd. It had to be short too as there isn't that much room between the centreline of the rear axle and the back of the front seats.

It also had to be within my capabilities of carrying out the wiring and getting it physically running. I do everything myself apart from aluminium welding as I have't got a tig! Hopefully this might change soon.

I'll be basing the tube frame chassis on this.



But with obvious changes to accept the Porsche suspension.

I have a couple of Boxster S gearboxes kicking around which need 2nd gear repairing so I'll be teaching myself to rebuild those as I go on. I already have a third gearbox in pieces. Quite a gearbox to say that the gears are only held on the shafts by friction... not splines! It does mean that you need one heck of a hydraulic press to get it apart though.

This is a photo that one of the chaps on Motorgeeks put together showing the compatibility (or lack of) between the normal Audi gearbox pattern (which is what the 986 and 996 gearboxes are based on) and the W12. This is the same for the RS6 engine too if anyone is interested.

I've been searching the land for some nice headers for the engine as it comes with 4, 3 into 1 exhaust manifolds (headers) which then feed into 2 downpipes which are 2 into 1 and run 6 (yes 6!) catalytic convertors. I really want to junk all of this and let the engine breath properly but the cheapest, in fact the only other option I've found so far is a company not far from me that built these for a W12 based landspeed record car.



The issue is that they want £3,500 to build another set! I paid only just a little more than that for the Phaeton W12 that my engine came from!!

There is an added issue with the W12 (and any other W configuration engine from VW/Audi/Bugatti). The exhaust ports are different lengths inside the cylinder heads. Any exhaust guru would spot this and build this difference into the manifolds. I'm not sure if the headers above have this taken into account or not.



The car came with a blown 5HP24A (I've been here before!) and a power steering fluid leak that was up by the rack... which would've taken an engine/gearbox removal to access.



Oh, I'm about to start an S8 32v engine install on the black pickup in the photo... after I've converted it to 4WD at Busfest 2014.

When I read up about the W12 engine, I remember one thing very clearly.

'Engine must be supported on VW tool No..... or sump will be damaged'. I.e. don't just sit the engine on the sump, you'll break it!

So I bought the VW engine support tool.





Which is what it's sitting on now.









The engine is now sitting next to the bug in storage waiting for me to get on with it!



I haven't decided exactly how I'll bolt the Boxster S gearbox to the engine yet but the top two bolts line up as do a couple of others so I know that it's centered on the engine. I just need to modify the bell-housing to add enough strength so that it can't go walk about.

This is the W12/RS6 pattern.



Here's a standard 3B spacer plate sitting over the W12 spacer plate.



And a 996 gearbox (that I happened to have sitting around at the time) sitting on top of the W12 spacer plate showing the common mounting holes.







I may use the flexplate along with something like an 034 flex plate insert from a 32v V8 as they both share the 10 bolt fitting. I haven't checked yet to see if the W12 fitting is offset like the 32v or not offset like the VR6.

The easy route would be to keep the flex plate for its timing gear and add to it. Use adaptor plate to house the flex plate as the diameter is bigger than the bell-housing of the Porsche gearbox. That way I can use the standard W12 startermotor in it's standard position.

The option is to fit a one off flywheel, modify the Porsche gearbox to mount the starter motor on that (instead of the engine).

I'll keep you update when things happen.

Oh... whoever started the thread, please could you alter the title on the main board so that it matches the title that I've edited at the top of this page? I can't do it.

Thanks

MG

[RS2]

Oh...

Cooling. As this started off as a reply to the fantastic MK2 S2 project thread... I should mention that I had the idea re rear mounted radiator fed by rear window ducts. The similarity ends there as I'll be using the original Phaeton W12 radiator (which is HUGE!) and the air will vent out of the vents just below the rear window. It'll sit over the gearbox.

The wheels will remain the same Design 90s but in the previous incarnation, I ran 16 x 6s with 195/50/16s.

This time they're a set of wheels from a 928GT. 16 x 7.5 and 16 x 9s.

One issue that I've stumbled over is that the widest tyre I can find for a 16 inch wheel (without going too tall) is a 245/45/16. I really want a 265 back there to try to get the power down but nobody makes one.

Oh, I'm not going to be adding wider wings or outrageous wings etc to the body. It will remain as it looks in the photo below.

The only thing I might be tempted to do will be to add an elevating wing in the roof above the rear window that will help stability over 100mph.

Having driven this car at that speed (on a track of course) previously, I can say that the back end of the car gets very twitchy due to the aerodynamics of the car.

MG

[Christophski]

Wow!!!! That is going to be some toy and will need lots of head scratching. Looks like you have definately thought about it though. I think I remember seeing your car at a few shows about 10 years ago or maybe it may have been in little pics in the old Volksworld mags.

Rather than having an electric pop up rear wing have you thought about a little carbon roof 'lump' as was on the metallic red porsche powered beetle on the Volksworld show main stand from 2014 to help with the handling? Would be lighter than the electric gubbins.


I think theres a few aircooled heads on here (me being one. Used to work for Volksworld and still do some shows with them), so keep the info coming as and when it progresses. The black wedge should be fun with that new lump in it too.

[caterpillar]

OHHH MY GOOD; What a beast...!!!! have you got the drawins for the frame on the net, or do yo made the drawings yourselves.... I DO LIKE it..

[spink]

OHHH MY GOOD; What a beast...!!!! have you got the drawins for the frame on the net, or do yo made the drawings yourselves.... I DO LIKE it..

The cad drawing looks similar to a mexican blokes project 'herman' I think his name was who was making a V8 beetle back in 2005/2006,never been finished that I can remember.I think his thread is on motorgeek aswell as another website(can't remember what that one is called now though)

Knowing Mikes current and previous projects I know this will be a good read

[irishs2]

The cad drawing looks similar to a mexican blokes project 'herman' I think his name was who was making a V8 beetle back in 2005/2006,never been finished that I can remember.I think his thread is on motorgeek aswell as another website(can't remember what that one is called now though)

Knowing Mikes current and previous projects I know this will be a good read

This might be it:

http://atkinsonracetechnology.com/rorty-mid_engined-v8-beetle/

[spink]

This might be it:

http://atkinsonracetechnology.com/ro...ned-v8-beetle/

ah yes I have come acoss that before somewhere

the mexican bloke is called hugo not herman like I thought,heres the motorgeek thread.The other website i was trying to think of was better though

audi v8 into beetle,looks like hes started on it again after a few off years

http://www.motorgeek.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=12942

[caterpillar]

thanks for sharing..... very nice forum .....! RS2@ give us the progress pics and storry please.. i DO like sutch