80tq: 516whp

[JSHADZI]

Hello everyone, its been a while since my last post Nov 2004, just an update for any of you that are interested in this ongoing project.

The latest since the 455wheel HP run last fall is a bigger 034EFI T3/T62 turbo with flow for about 700HP at a PR of over 3.2. Hit the rollers earlier this week, the result was 516whp and 450.6 wheel TQ. Boost comes on at 5krpm and hits wtih an ungodly force all the way to 7500rpm (depending on where the revlimiter is). Acceleration is mindboggling, in 4th and 5th is slips the SPEC Stage 3 mercilessly, so a clutch upgrade will be in the future.

The Dyno Plot, no corrections at sea level, ATP Dyno where all my dyno plots are done (for consistency):



The power is courtesey of an 034EFI T3/T61 turbo with large .82 AR turbine housing. Still running a 3" DP and exhaust with 3" Borla muffler, still running stock 3B IM and throttle body (yes, no Porsche logos here).

Turbine Shot of Turbo:



Compressor Shot of Turbo:



516whp Dyno Run Video:

http://www.034efi.com/516whp.avi

I also found the limit of the largest of the external CIS pumps, the CIS3 pump. At full boost pressure would peak and then begin to drop rapidly, causing the lean condition towards redline (that you can see on the dyno chart). Since I'm already running only 3 BAR fuel pressure (no point in turning up the pressure, lowring it with larger injectors could be an option at higher pressures) with #75 injectors, I will be adding a second pump in parallel to alleviate the condition. I'll also be using a high flow aftermarket fuel filter, but you can assume the stock Bosch fuel filter is good for at least 600HP assuming its not the restricting factor.

Anyhoo, see the fuel pressure drop here!:

http://www.034efi.com/FuelPressureDrop.avi

Some things we now know pretty well:

-CIS3 fuel pump good to about 475whp.
-SPEC Stage 3 holds up to about 425whp (rated at 550 crank HP).
-205 series RA1's on a 2900lb quattro with about 600 crank HP provide absolutely no traction in any gear.
-3B intake manifold and throttle body, unmodified, can support well over 500 wheel HP, with no power drop past 7krpm.
-Being able to tune your fuel, ignition, coil dwell times, etc, etc is essential for making power at these levels (ie: 034EFI Stage IIc ECU)
-Eagle connecting rods support well over 500whp, as well as the stock Audi block with 83mm JE pistons and ARP head, rod and main studs. Copper headgasket with 0-ringed block seems totally unstressed by this sort of power.
-Bosch copper 7A plugs handily take the abuse of almost 300HP/Liter, so do the stock 7A plug wires.

Future plans are to add a second CIS3 fuel pump and go back, I anticipate another 30-50whp just by correcting the a/f ratio with the proper amount of fuel. 3-5 more PSI should bring output close if not past 600whp.

More about the car at: http://www.80tq.com/20vtMotor.html

All for now, comments and jeers welcome as always.

Thanks!

[kwlw]

Javad - nice to see your knowledge and your car(s) evolving through the time.

Keep it going .

Sau

[Tommy200rs]

Hello,
The lean toasting is not so nice. Have you considered adding the fuel pressure to have nicer looking spray pattern.

Have you measured the back pressure in the exhaust manifold/ Turbinehousing. If you have possibility to check the backpressure and changing the Turbinehousing to a smaller one from large .82 AR to .06x something the engine might make the boost earlier ? Might by worth a backpressure testmeasurement ?

Have you tried Bosch silver 2 or 3 for that power level and gap 0,4 to 0,5mm. What cams are you using and what position with them ? Your project is very interesting.

[Jeffer]

Hi,

Those are impressive figures
To bad the pics and vids don't work

Cheers

[sorens2]

How does your BOV work. I have the same type and it runs like ****. Mine is placed after the turbo. Why have you placed yours here next to the TB ?
Nice output BTW.

Søren S2

[diesel des]

Interesting on the CIS fuel pump. Would that be a similar pump as used on the WR UR quattros with their CIS? Looks like a DAM quick car. it would take some driving!

[JSHADZI]

Hello,
The lean toasting is not so nice. Have you considered adding the fuel pressure to have nicer looking spray pattern.

Have you measured the back pressure in the exhaust manifold/ Turbinehousing. If you have possibility to check the backpressure and changing the Turbinehousing to a smaller one from large .82 AR to .06x something the engine might make the boost earlier ? Might by worth a backpressure testmeasurement ?

Have you tried Bosch silver 2 or 3 for that power level and gap 0,4 to 0,5mm. What cams are you using and what position with them ? Your project is very interesting.

Hello Tommy, the lean condition is simply due to fuel pump volume maxing out, I have run 3 BAR (what the injectors are rated at) simply to maximize fuel pump flow, as you likely know, fuel pump volume drops proportionately to pressure increase.

I have not measured the back pressure per se, but I did run the car at 415whp w/o an exh, just an open DP, there was no measureable increase. Remember that I am also venting the WG to atmosphere, so that much of the exh is being rerouted out of the main exh system.

I have tested many different iteration of turbos on this car, please see: http://www.80tq.com/20vtMotor.html for more details. I have run a .63AR turbo with P-trim turbine wheel, basically an 034EFI High Output Hybrid, this made 455whp at the same pressure as this turbo, you can see the dyno plot here: http://www.80tq.com/images/20vt/80tq_455whp.jpg

So that its understood, this project is currently about making maximun power as an experiment and to find limits, not to create lower output, more torque as in a street driven car.

I have run several different plugs in the car, I was not impressed with the AAN FDP50R, it generated a bad miss above 400whp which went away when I switched to a plain $1.50 copper plug.

Currently running the 7A cams, see the 80tq site, I also have some dyno plots with a set of CAT cams set at 112d lobe centers (the 7A are superior for lower end power, the CAT's require solid lifters and 8500rpm).

[JSHADZI]

Hi,

Those are impressive figures
To bad the pics and vids don't work

Cheers

Hmm, should work, maybe they were overloaded by DL activity, try it again

[JSHADZI]

How does your BOV work. I have the same type and it runs like ****. Mine is placed after the turbo. Why have you placed yours here next to the TB ?
Nice output BTW.

Søren S2

Works very well, I chose it due to the sheer size to quickly evacuate the intake system between shifts and to alleviate pressure surges on the compressor. It does have a very stiff spring,however, have you tried softening yours?

IMO/E its not very important where you put the valve, I have done practical testing and found no difference. There are very long and "theoretical" discussions about this online, but I have yet to see evidence that it makes a difference.

[JSHADZI]

Interesting on the CIS fuel pump. Would that be a similar pump as used on the WR UR quattros with their CIS? Looks like a DAM quick car. it would take some driving!

The CIS3 pump is noticeably larger than the early CIS pump, flow is higher as well. Yes, the car is a real handful to drive, things get very blurry and happen VERY fast after 5krpm

[martinjs]

Awesome javad, are you going to stick with the 3b inlet manifold?
Have you got any vids of it on the street?

martin

[Jamo]

Are you still using stock ignition system?
Would be nice to see results with an ABY/RS2 IM or even better a AAN IM.
Also what year is your car? i thought Ruby Reds were 1994 onwards only?

Which reminds me get your finger out MartinJS and install your IM

[martinjs]

Are you still using stock ignition system?
Would be nice to see results with an ABY/RS2 IM or even better a AAN IM.
Also what year is your car? i thought Ruby Reds were 1994 onwards only?

Which reminds me get your finger out MartinJS and install your IM

Think it is using javads custon ignition setup, hence 5 coils. http://www.80tq.com/images/20vt/engineinstalled1.jpg

Its an 80q thats why colour is different.

Never mind my manifold, get your suspension/top mounts done you lazy git

[Jamo]

Never mind my manifold, get your suspension/top mounts done you lazy git

Bah! No comment!

[auditude]

Awesome javad, are you going to stick with the 3b inlet manifold?

I bet his answer will be that he'll stick with it as long as it's not a restriction. Once it becomes the bottleneck, then it would get addressed. Am I right, Javad?