vems trigger problems on aan

[S2central.net]

Interesting... clearly you are getting some rogue pulses. Motronic must have superior filtering to avoid the rogues. It would seem that VEMS is purely triggering on the pulse edges, but if it also had a pulse threshold detection that would nicely filter out the rogues.

It should also be possible the create an external circuit that pre-processes the G4 pulse to clean it up before the VEMS ECU. Analog stuff isn't really my bag, but I would be drawn to some sort of comparator circuit with a threshold level that is used to gate the good pulse... Look at difference in voltage of the good and bad pulses. It might even be worth using a potential divider to reduce the amplitude on both pulse types - this might bring the rogue pulses inside a window where they are correctly ignored by VEMS... whilst keeping the good pulses large enough for healthy detection.

Aren't oscilloscopes brilliant though !!!!

[diesel des]

There are no other pins on the flywheel, these spikes seem to be caused by the notches on the flywheel. has anyone pictures of a 7a and a 3b flywheel so I can compare. There is now a vems page for this. vems.hu/wiki/index.php?page=MembersPage%2FDesmondAudi Cheers des

[Bram]

I have not seen that on my scope using a 7A flywheel. It looks like some metal interference of (maybe) other pins is too near the crank sensor?

[diesel des]

And the next pic. Hopefully vems software guys can sort this. looks easy i think...

[diesel des]

Ok so now my car runs on VEMS but gets some trigger faults causing PING in engine. Look at the scope. Blue is crank pin, yellow the cam. The 7A flywheel gives 2 small extra pulses before and after the main crank pulse confusing vems.

[S2central.net]

This will be useful for comparison - http://www.s2forum.com/forum/showthr...d=1#post498878

See you tomorrow AM Des

[diesel des]

Update then. So I checked the timing marks and sensors. Everything was where it was ment to be. I swapped the two crank sensors for another set. And now the problem is almost cured! I say almost as when cold there is still the odd trigger fault maybe 2 times a minute.

Any ideas? What should the clearence between sensor and pin be. Cheers.

[S2central.net]

@marc - I had never tried to see how much motronic would accept there for misalignment - but the reference mark is supposed to arrive within the window. Clearly Mr Bosch designed some room for movement there.

[a4kquattro]

Hi Paul,

And they say Motronic is complicated - LOL... Seriously though - good luck Des... trying to work out if the reference pin needs to be magnetic or not.

no need for it to be magnetic, but it does need to be ferrous. (eg attracted by a magnet)

On motronic the crank reference signal has to arrive within the 'hall window' -

not true in my tests. It will start up to 10 degrees out of window. Found this out when I attempted to convert a car to VEMS here that had a custom flywheel fitted. ran fine on motronic, when I rotated the engine over and checked the position of the reference pin it was indeed fully out of window by 5 degrees. In that case I moved the pin to fix the issue.

looks like VEMs is same in this regard when I skim this thread. Don't forget I still have your sillyscope here - that would be useful here to 'see' what signals you get on a cold crank. I was using it today helping a friend condemn an O2 probe on a 996.

yep, scope would help. if you've got dual channel scope both the cam hall pulse as well as the reference pin. should give you a good picture of whats going on.

Incidentally its probably easiest to do that with engine running on motronic. just "back probe" the pins at the connector with the rubber boot pulled back a bit. works good, BTDT.

[S2central.net]

Gimme a shout if you need the scope to bottom out the timing issues.

[diesel des]

Yea I might need that back for a while then. I'm sure this could be sorted in software though. As I can start the car with the sensor connected, then turn it off in software and disconnect the sensor plug. Then it runs great. Surely software could do that....

[S2central.net]

And they say Motronic is complicated - LOL... Seriously though - good luck Des... trying to work out if the reference pin needs to be magnetic or not.

On motronic the crank reference signal has to arrive within the 'hall window' - looks like VEMs is same in this regard when I skim this thread. Don't forget I still have your sillyscope here - that would be useful here to 'see' what signals you get on a cold crank. I was using it today helping a friend condemn an O2 probe on a 996.

[diesel des]

Yes and both the vems ecus are AAN replacement units so have the correct setup. I got them from Peter Nanassy who is working hard to help. But the more help the better. Cheers des.

[diesel des]

Oh i did weld the new piece of steel to the flywheel with mild steel rods with the earth connected to the front pully. Earthing on the block and welding the flywheel can cause micro welds on the big ends and isnt good. The battery was disconnected and ecu removed.

Would be this weekend before i get to play anymore. So lets make a list of stuff to try,

1. turn crank till new tooth is in middle of sensor and check to see if cam sensor is in middle of its window.

Anything else?

Could the engine really be out of time as it runs fine on motronic. How could i adjust it slightly if required. It cant be a tooth out...

Cheers,des

[diesel des]

And my Config file

# CurrentTime: 2010-06-07 22:14:24
# Creator: VemsTune 0.10.20 (2010.03.08)
# Version: 1.1.74
# SerialNumber: v3.3_n002860
# CompilationTime: 2010-04-24 13:21
# Signature: VEMS v1.1.74 16x14 kpa=2,2
# CompileOptions: 0000001E

primep=00
primep_temp_scaling=00
awe_time_cold=7D
awe_time_warm=19
cranking_thres=02
warmup_map_scale=E6
cranking_div=02
film_coeff=0D
shiftcut_potlow=3C
shiftcut_pothi=FF
shiftcut_retcut=00
boost_matdec=C8
boost_egtdec=77
iacref_matslope=60
shiftcut_minrpm=FF
egt_rich=00
knock_rich=AA
knock_boost=C8
warmup_clt[0]=74
warmup_clt[1]=5D
warmup_clt[2]=40
warmup_clt[3]=29
warmup_clt[4]=22
warmup_clt[5]=0D
warmup_clt[6]=00
warmup_clt[7]=00
warmup_clt[8]=08
warmup_clt[9]=34
warmup_rpm_scale=E6
req_fuel=1E
divider=01
alternate=04
injopen=00
battfac=22
kpafac=D0
kpaoffs=94
injocfuel=08
injrampup_battfac=FF
injpwm=FF
injpwmt=FF
als_launch_input=C6
launch_maxkpa=FF
launch_kparange=FF
tpsdot_kpadot_conf=00
tpsdotrate[0]=04
tpsdotrate[1]=07
tpsdotrate[2]=0F
tpsdotrate[3]=1A
tpsaq[0]=40
tpsaq[1]=2D
tpsaq[2]=0D
tpsaq[3]=07
als_cut_mintps=FF
tpsasync=C0
acmult=5A
tpsacold=5A
launch_enrich=1A
launch_retard=50
overrun_fuelcut=12
overrun_fuelresume=0E
rev_limit=46
airden_ignore=61
config11=41
config12=40
config13=02
batt_cal=C0
iac2load=C6
als_max_cut=00
dbaro=0A
tps_low=16
tps_high=E6
fan_temp=EA
fan_hyst=05
fan_channel=FF
iac_step_seq=D8
iac_conf=58
iac_max_steps=CC
iac_tps_thres=05
iac_cold_idle_temp=8C
iac_warm_idle_temp=AA
iac_cold_rpm=6E
iac_warm_rpm=64
iac_cold_start_pos=BF
iac_warm_start_pos=99
iac_afterstart_rpm=00
iac_afterstart_duration=19
iac_speed=17
iac_kp=0A
iac_ki=32
iac_kd=32
launch_rpm=00
iac_integral_limit_dec=0A
iac_integral_limit_inc=0A
iac_integral_deadband=14
launch_retard_margin=4B
als_cut_maxtps=FF
confswitch=C6
iac_ref_pos[0]=99
iac_ref_pos[1]=8C
iac_ref_pos[2]=82
iac_ref_pos[3]=80
iac_ref_pos[4]=80
iac_ref_pos[5]=80
iac_ref_pos[6]=80
iac_ref_pos[7]=80
iac_ref_pos[8]=80
iac_ref_pos[9]=80
iac_sol_channel=60
iac_ign_slope=04
softrpm_range=32
iac_ign_advance_limit=30
iac_ign_retard_limit=10
iac_ign_threshold=04
ego_conf=06
ego_lag=14
ego_coolant=91
ego_maxtps=E6
ego_maxmap=A0
ego_minrpm=06
ego_maxrpm=46
ego_warmup=2D
ego_lean_limit=00
ego_rich_limit=00
ego_pid_kp=80
als_enrich=00
ego_delta=03
ego_target=19
ego_pid_window=01
ignretard_clamp=FF
als_react_tps=FF
wbo2_abs_limit=E0
wbo2_limit_maxt=F0
wbo2_fallback=71
wbo2_retry_t=06
als_retard_rpm1=FF
als_retard_rpm2=FF
wbo2_ri_target=A5
wbo2_nernstdc_target=86
wbo2_pump_pw_zero=66
wbo2_calibration=97
wbo2_heater_pid_kp=45
wbo2_heater_pid_ki=11
wbo2_heater_pid_kd=1A
wbo2_heater_pid_ilimit=80
wbo2_pump_pid_kp=15
wbo2_pump_pid_ki=4E
wbo2_pump_pid_kd=00
wbo2_pump_pid_ilimit=7A
inj_stage2_offset=80
knock_chan=F0
knock_sampling_window=00
knock1_frequency=29
knock1_gain=0E
knock1_integrator=14
knock2_frequency=29
knock2_gain=00
knock2_integrator=00
knock_threshold=0A
knock_noise_scale=D8
knock_max_retard=00
knock_default_retard=00
knock_retard_step=00
knock_retard_delay=30
knock_advance_step=00
knock_advance_delay=00
knock_minrpm=F4
knock_maxrpm=FF
ego_delay=14
ego_minmap=09
cold_ignadjust=80
crank_ve=96
film_enlean=00
iac_close_delay=28
iac_integral_lowmap=32
spare_vars[0]=28
spare_vars[1]=50
lcd_c0=FE
lcd_delay=42
lcd_backlight=FF
kpa_conf=22
als_igncut_rpm2=FF
als_retard_mintps=FF
als_retard_maxtps=FF
lcd_default_view=00
primary_trigger=42
secondary_trigger=18
tooth_wheel=5A
trigger_tooth=00
another_trigger_tooth=12
crank_minper=00
tooth_wheel_twidth[0]=00
tooth_wheel_twidth[1]=20
cam_sync_r_edge_phase=00
cam_sync_f_edge_phase=00
reset_engphase_after=40
ign_tdcdelay=6A
ign_dwell14=3B
ign_dwellmap=0B
ign_crank_advance=18
ign_out=70
ignchmax=04
engine_off_delay=08
pump_on_mintime=0B
fuelpump_channel=50
inj_stage2_rate=FF
inj_stage2_start_tps=FF
inj_stage2_start_map=FF
als_igncut_rpm1=FF
als_deact_time=00
als_deact_egt=00
als_retard=CC
als_rev_limit=FF
misc1out_minrpm=00
misc1out_maxrpm=03
misc1out_mintps=00
misc1out_maxtps=FF
misc1out_minmap=00
misc1out_maxmap=FF
misc1out_channel=0F
misc2out_minrpm=FF
misc2out_maxrpm=FF
misc2out_mintps=FF
misc2out_maxtps=FF
misc2out_minmap=FF
misc2out_maxmap=FF
misc2out_channel=FF
act_wot_rpm=FF
act_wot_channel=FF
act_rpm_rpm=23
act_rpm_channel=32
egt1_cal=4B
als_tks_channel=FF
boost_conf=61
boost_more=40
boost_minpressure=37
boost_pid_kp=28
boost_pid_ki=28
boost_pid_kd=3C
boost_pid_ilimit=64
boost_channel=FF
water_pump_temp=00
hybrid_rpm_a=00
hybrid_rpm_m=00
water_pump_hyst=7E
water_pump_channel=FF
toothrel_normal=76
toothrel_missing=00
fuelcut_min_kpa=09
fuelcut_max_kpa=A0
tach_channel=07
tach_div=10
shiftcut_conf_input=A1
shiftcut_tpsthresh=00
shiftcut_time=7F
softrpm_rpm=41
n2o_mintps=FF
n2o_minrpm=FF
n2o_maxrpm=FF
n2o_retard=00
n2o_minkpa=FF
n2o_maxkpa=FF
n2o_input=FC
n2o_output_channel=FF
n2o_settings=FC
launch_out_channel=FF
launch_out_delay=FF
launch_out_pwmlow=FF
launch_out_pwmhigh=FF
launch_out_pwmramp=FF
launch_out_ontime=FF
launch_out_conf=FF
iac_minpwm=40
boostgauge_channel=FF
boostgauge_offset=FF
boostgauge_mul=FF
map_filter=00
speed_sensor=FF
gears[0]=FF
gears[1]=FF
gears[2]=FF
gears[3]=FF
gears[4]=FF
gears[5]=FF
pwcommlock0=FF
als_iacpos=FF
blabla5[0]=FF
blabla5[1]=FF
blabla5[2]=FF
vtstorage[0]=FF
vtstorage[1]=FF
vtstorage[2]=FF
vtstorage[3]=FF
vtstorage[4]=FF
vtstorage[5]=FF
vtstorage[6]=FF
vtstorage[7]=FF
iac_conf2=FD
warning_rpm=FF
warning_kpa=FF
warning_conf=FF
warning_adc_value=FF
warning_egt=FF
warning_afr=FF
warning_clt=FF
warning_channel=FF
injection_angle=FF
boost_tps_dc_scale=FF
n2o_mingear=FF
misc1out_conditions=FF
misc1out_condition1=FF
misc1out_condition2=FF
misc2out_conditions=FF
misc2out_condition1=FF
misc2out_condition2=FF
knock_gain[0]=FF
knock_gain[1]=FF
knock_gain[2]=FF
knock_gain[3]=FF
knock_gain[4]=FF
knock_gain[5]=FF
knock_gain[6]=FF
knock_gain[7]=FF
knock_reference[0]=FF
knock_reference[1]=FF
knock_reference[2]=FF
knock_reference[3]=FF
knock_reference[4]=FF
knock_reference[5]=FF
knock_reference[6]=FF
knock_reference[7]=FF
knock_calibration_min=FF
knock_calibration_max=FF
inj_add_trim[0]=FF
inj_add_trim[1]=FF
inj_add_trim[2]=FF
inj_add_trim[3]=FF
inj_add_trim[4]=FF
inj_add_trim[5]=FF
inj_add_trim[6]=FF
inj_add_trim[7]=FF
inj_deadtime[0]=FF
inj_deadtime[1]=FF
inj_deadtime[2]=FF
inj_deadtime[3]=FF
inj_deadtime[4]=FF
speed1_sensor=FF
fp_divider=FF
gears_delay=FF
anytrim1=F7
launch_speed1=FF
n2o_rich=80
speed_mintime=FF
accell_retard=00
cranking_clt_range[0]=50
cranking_clt_range[1]=78
cranking_clt_range[2]=A0
cranking_clt_range[3]=DC
crank_enrich[0]=38
crank_enrich[1]=24
crank_enrich[2]=14
crank_enrich[3]=04
afterstart_enrich[0]=0D
afterstart_enrich[1]=08
afterstart_enrich[2]=04
afterstart_enrich[3]=01
vvti_cold=FF
vvti_idle=FF
vvti_pid_kp=FF
vvti_pid_ki=FF
vvti_pid_kd=FF
vvti_pid_ilimit=FF
vvti_channel=FF
accel_rpm[0]=0A
accel_rpm[1]=19
accel_rpm[2]=28
accel_rpm[3]=3C
accel_scale[0]=00
accel_scale[1]=00
accel_scale[2]=00
accel_scale[3]=00
inj_stage2_conf=FE
als_tps_thres=FF
bla2[0]=FF
bla2[1]=FF
bla2[2]=FF
bla2[3]=FF
bla2[4]=FF
bla2[5]=FF
bla2[6]=FF
bla2[7]=FF
bla2[8]=FF
inj_size[0]=02
inj_size[1]=B2
clt_curve[0]=FE
clt_curve[1]=BF
clt_curve[2]=A8
clt_curve[3]=9A
clt_curve[4]=91
clt_curve[5]=89
clt_curve[6]=83
clt_curve[7]=7D
clt_curve[8]=77
clt_curve[9]=71
clt_curve[A]=6C
clt_curve[B]=66
clt_curve[C]=60
clt_curve[D]=5A
clt_curve[E]=51
clt_curve[F]=44
clt_curve[G]=3C
mat_curve[0]=FE
mat_curve[1]=BF
mat_curve[2]=A8
mat_curve[3]=9A
mat_curve[4]=91
mat_curve[5]=89
mat_curve[6]=83
mat_curve[7]=7D
mat_curve[8]=77
mat_curve[9]=71
mat_curve[A]=6C
mat_curve[B]=66
mat_curve[C]=60
mat_curve[D]=5A
mat_curve[E]=51
mat_curve[F]=44
mat_curve[G]=3C
clt_range[0]=3C
clt_range[1]=50
clt_range[2]=64
clt_range[3]=78
clt_range[4]=8C
clt_range[5]=A0
clt_range[6]=AC
clt_range[7]=B9
clt_range[8]=CE
clt_range[9]=DC
boostalt_channel=70
h[0]=08 02 01 04 10 20 40 80
h[1]=00 48 36 24 12 00 00 00
h[2]=68 40 38 48 58 50 50 50
j[0]=6A 6B 6E 6D 6B 6B 6D 6D 6F 72 73 72 70 6E 69 65
j[1]=75 74 75 73 73 74 7A 7C 77 75 73 73 72 70 6C 67
j[2]=78 79 7B 7B 7D 7A 7E 81 7D 73 72 73 72 6F 6C 69
j[3]=7B 79 7C 7D 7D 7D 7F 83 7E 73 72 74 72 6F 6C 69
j[4]=7B 7E 7B 7D 7B 7C 7D 82 7E 72 72 74 73 70 6E 6E
j[5]=78 79 78 78 7F 7F 80 83 83 6F 71 72 71 70 70 6F
j[6]=78 79 7D 7E 7F 7F 81 82 7C 6C 6E 6F 6E 6D 6D 6F
j[7]=6F 6F 7F 7F 7F 7F 81 80 7F 6F 6F 6F 6F 6F 6F 6F
j[8]=78 77 7E 7F 81 81 7F 81 81 79 79 79 79 7A 7B 7C
j[9]=83 83 83 83 84 80 7F 80 82 83 83 84 84 85 85 86
j[A]=83 83 84 84 85 82 85 87 89 8D 8E 90 8F 8F 8F 8F
j[B]=83 83 85 84 86 85 89 8C 90 94 96 99 9A 98 98 97
j[C]=78 86 86 86 86 89 8B 90 94 99 9B 9E A0 9F 9E 9E
j[D]=00 78 88 80 88 8B 90 96 9A 9D A0 A3 A4 A4 A3 A3
j[r]=02 05 08 0A 0C 10 14 1A 20 27 2D 34 3C 43 4A 50
j[k]=0A 0F 17 1E 28 32 43 53 64 71 7D 8A 96 AA
l[0]=38 3B 31 2C 2C 3B 54 54
l[1]=3B 3B 31 2C 2C 43 54 54
l[2]=3D 40 31 31 31 43 54 54
l[3]=3D 3D 43 43 48 4B 4B 4B
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l[6]=70 70 70 70 70 70 78 78
l[7]=78 78 78 78 78 78 78 78
l[r]=07 0E 14 1E 28 32 3C 50
l[k]=0F 23 2D 33 41 55 69 82
n[0]=28 28 40 70 98 A8 AF B4 B8 B8 BC BC
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n[2]=28 28 48 70 8C A0 AC B4 B8 B8 B8 B8
n[3]=34 38 54 70 84 98 A4 A4 A8 A8 A8 A8
n[4]=30 40 4C 64 70 88 94 94 94 94 98 98
n[5]=30 40 40 50 58 73 7C 7C 84 84 84 84
n[6]=34 3C 3C 48 54 6C 78 78 80 80 80 80
n[7]=34 3C 38 3C 50 58 64 6C 6C 70 74 74
n[8]=2C 30 2C 38 44 4C 54 58 58 58 5C 5C
n[9]=20 20 24 34 3C 3C 44 48 48 48 4C 4C
n[A]=04 14 0C 1C 20 24 2C 30 34 34 34 38
n[B]=07 10 0C 18 1C 20 28 30 30 30 30 34
n[r]=08 0B 12 18 1E 24 2A 30 36 3C 42 48
n[k]=0F 19 23 2D 33 3C 46 55 64 73 82 96
t[0]=1F 40 5E 80 9E CC FF FF
b[0]=32 3C 46 64 7D 96 96 96 96 96 96 96
b[1]=3B 3D FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF
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b[r]=FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF
p[0]=00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
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e[7]=C8 B0 98 80 80 74 64 64
e[r]=3C 50 64 78 8C A0 B4 C8
e[k]=00 06 10 34 67 9A CD FD
y[0]=00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
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y[6]=00 33 33 85 85 85 87 87 8A 8A 8A 8A
y[7]=00 1A 1A 7A 7A 7A 7A 7A 80 80 80 80
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y[9]=00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
y[A]=00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
y[B]=00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
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y[k]=32 3C 4B 64 6E 78 82 8C 96 9B A5 AF
i[0]=00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
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i[4]=00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
i[5]=00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
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w[0]=0C 0C 08 00 00 00 00 00
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s[1]=0A 1E 32 46 5A 6E 96 00