EV14 injector closing time

[A80Avant]

Does anyone know what the injector closing time is for the EV14?

thanks
vasilis

[nervas]

there are a lot different EV14 injectors, look for dead times by part numbers or ask seller to specify.
Here is link from Bosch Motorsport http://www.bosch-motorsport.de/pdf/c...lves/EV_14.pdf

and here is all Bosch Motorsport injectors with PDF data:
http://www.bosch-motorsport.de/conte.../html/2659.htm

[A80Avant]

thanks

i have sent out some emails, but unfortunately, other than the volt offset which i already have, it seems that the ms that are on that table include both opening and closing times which are quite high.

Doesnt make a huge difference in vems, but if i can subtract the closing times from that table, then i would possibly have even better idle and compensation when fan or A/C kicks in.

Unfortunately i cannot find on the web a specific deadtime vs volt table. All i can find is that the deadtime (or closing time?) is 0.7ms @ 14V, but rather than subtracting that from all voltages, i thought of asking if anyone knows how that differs.

[nervas]

you should also know what static pressure is, because with different pressure, different times will be.

[A80Avant]

i know that
i have voltage offset for specific static pressure of fpr from fuel injection clinic who sent me the injectors. Hopefully i will get a response from them later on. Time difference...

if i have news ill post them up, but if anyone has some info already, please post!
thanks

[prj]

No idea if you are still ignoring my posts, but here goes at 4 bar for 550cc's
If you have bigger or smaller injectors and different fuel pressure, then the values will be different, but there are datasheets available and they are accurate.

Here goes, tested on more than 10 cars:
8V - 2.229
10V - 1.493
12V - 1.099
14V - 0.800
16V - 0.693

Test this only with the engine at full temp. The EV14's need a LOT more warmup enrichment than old EV1 injectors, upto 40%. I guess this is because how the fuel hits the valves with them.

Good luck.

[Jamo]

No idea if you are still ignoring my posts, but here goes at 4 bar for 550cc's
If you have bigger or smaller injectors and different fuel pressure, then the values will be different, but there are datasheets available and they are accurate.

Here goes, tested on more than 10 cars:
8V - 2.229
10V - 1.493
12V - 1.099
14V - 0.800
16V - 0.693

Test this only with the engine at full temp. The EV14's need a LOT more warmup enrichment than old EV1 injectors, upto 40%. I guess this is because how the fuel hits the valves with them.

Good luck.

Interesting as those values are a lot lower that the calibration summary sheet with the FNPW_OFFCOMP compensation.

I might give them a go with some modification

[A80Avant]

i have something similar on mine, sent from FIC

apparently if i use smaller values on vems though, (which is the closing time of the injector subtracted), then i get better fueling table around idle.

However, i just had a response from vems that usually the closing time is often ommited and not much info is there.

an advice i was given was to reduce all values by the same number and see what happens around the idle area.

[A80Avant]

i will not use the OFF compensation,
that will make things worse in vems

apparently if you subtract about 5-7ms from all those values, it should need higher VE numbers around the idle area, which gives more potential of fine tuning. Thats the theory.

[Jamo]

Where did you get it will make it worse in vems? tbh it only makes a small difference in that the ve will change, I've been using ev14 in vems for over 2 years and any value you put in just means a change in other tables. Idle isn't really affected with ev14 you can get any basic sane value to work quite well.

The injector angle curve is the thing to watch out for, I found that screwed up tuning values alot!

My advice pick a set of values and stick with them if your tuning

[prj]

If I request 14.7 in Motronic with these values I always get 14.7, and Motronic has no VE or any other things except the MAF...
I remember using a different datasheet for these, not the one that is floating around on boschdealer.

And yes, with VEMS you can just code injector latency into the VE table.

In Motronic you can also cook it into the target fuel table, but then your target fuel table becomes completely wrong. I.e. you would be requesting 16 and getting 14.7... and you have to do huge amounts of extra work (recalibrating the entire lower end of the fuel table) when swapping injectors, instead of just telling Motronic the size in cc and latency, and having to do no changes to the fuel map.

I think it's bad tuning to not tune the latency in Motronic, but I don't know about VEMS.

Basically, I can guarantee that these values are 100% correct for 0 280 158 117 at 4 bar. That's all

[A80Avant]

if you look at help files on the vemstune in regards to simple volt compensation it says that the higher values you use, the lower VE values you get around idle, and that will make idle more difficult for vems to handle. Which is why they have a simple values as a reference to use.

Info comes from marcel, so i believe it. Also my idle is fine, but not any better when compared to the dekas. Yes much more warm up enrichment was required as prj noted.

finaly you also get a validation error when using those high values on the voltage, which is why i investigated.

injector angle curve, i didnt touch as it has been seen by a few people now and recon its ok.

what values have you used there?

[Jamo]

It's pretty easy to be retentive about the setup though, I haven't got the values on my laptop one thing is that VEMS rounds up or down values for some reason you can't enter direct figures never found out why, it was the same for the old injector model as well.

The injector dead time error in vemstune is a bug

If you look at ID deadtimes they can be even higher, a developer hasn't considered this

[A80Avant]

i thought of that myself, which is why i contacted them,
but on the help file, it distinctly says that flow sheets will have high ms values, and the reason for that is that they take into account opening and closing time, whereas vems really needs the opening time minus the closing to get a better reaction overall.

so unfortunately this is not known, and sometimes difficult to get hold of.

my ms values are pretty much close to the ones posted above, im at work, so dont remember them off the top of my head. Marcel pointed out to me though that if those values were much smaller, then disregarding the fact that you dont get the validation error which i dont care about anyway, vems is supposed to handle better things like fan or AC kicking in while maintaining the idle stable.

i have a 940rpm set idle speed and its nice and stable, reacts fast and everything, but i know can be better, and not require lamda to work too much or fuel enrichment to dance around to keep it steady.

obviously on idle you have ISV, timing, lamda, and IATs all trying for the same thing, so its always the hardest bit to tune!

[max_s2]

About injector dead time. Can someone tell me what the hell he is doing here to find injector dead time: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbPqb..._order&list=UL ? I'm not so familier with russian language

Maybe prj can translate this in few words?