recommendations for vems or something else

[miljan]

I want to buy an aftermarket engine management. I need something that is not very expensive, and it works well. Should I buy vems motronic55 or Assembled v3.6 controller? What I choose, and whether it is mounted on 3B or AAN? Thx

[A80Avant]

If you look on the forum, thee are a few members using vems as well as good info about it. I think its the easiest choice. I would also change to coils rather than distributor

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[prj]

I would go for Tatech. It is a bit more expensive, but has proper closed loop knock control.

The cheapest will be to buy only the board for VEMS, buy an old BMW ECU with 55 pin connector and then assemble it yourself.

[terrybullwon]

I am with Prj Tatech for ease of use

[prj]

Btw, knock detection is a pretty damn big issue, because it can mean the difference between your engine being in one piece or having a hole in the block.

That is why Bosch has invested and keeps investing millions upon millions into these little chips that detect knock.

If you look at ME7 for example, then it can basically tune itself to give you the best performance under any circumstances by keeping the engine on the very edge the entire time.

By not having good knock control, you are effectively cutting the power of your car, because you have to run a lot less timing.

[prj]

All in all, VEMS has only one thing going for it - it is cheap.
So back on topic:

To make the cheapest possible VEMS, buy:
http://shop.vems.hu/catalog/genboard-p-29.html
And all the drivers etc the board needs.

Then buy an old BMW M1.1 or M1.2 ECU with 55 pin connector.
I am sure you can find one for 10-15 euros, because no one gives a damn about them.

Then do this:


And you have assembled VEMS for <400 EUR.

End result:


So if you want cheapest possible standalone, do this.
It is 5x cheaper than Tatech and more than 2x cheaper than the assembled VEMS controller.
With this big difference, it makes good sense to go this way. A lot of bang for the buck, even with some "features" unusable.

[A80Avant]

Dmitri,

now that you have tuned so many cars, and everyone knows that you have done a good progress with motronic, it is easy to say that at the same time everyone knows that you dont like vems as well. As you stated a bit earlier, about noone believing in you when you started and a lot of people still dont, (fact that you dont like and i agree), why dont you have the curtesy of giving the benefit of the doubt to VEMS as well until they produce a good knock control system which they already have stated that they are introducing anyway?

Surely there are better aftermarket ECUs out there, and TATECH is one of them which is more than 100% more expensive than VEMS. Also it requires a tuner to tune it for you which you then easily loose contact with and when an issue appears, you may be left with a car that is not working. Even from members in this forum, i know of examples that 'well known' and respected tuners have produced a few maps for them on their aftermarket ECU and fiddled with the more important areas of their map,and then left them with no idle control, no warm up enrichments etc... they just didnt bother. Obviously you dont do that because in motronic you dont need to. Its all taken care of, and you dont have to search for the values. Easier tune once you get your head around it.

Bottom line is to be able to state facts and not just extreme personal views for or against a product.

Fact is that for people that want to play around with their engine and feel confident enough after educating themselves a bit in regards to mapping, VEMS is one of the cheapest AND safe enough ways to do it.
Proof of that is the fact that i have been using/mapping it on my own as well as so many other owners and havent blown an engine yet, similar to what you say when it comes to your mapping. AND you do it part time+ get payed for it!!!! We do it on our own, as a hobby and not one audi engine has been blown yet using VEMS.

So what is this big deal about knock control?? I too believe it is important, i too want a good system in place to be safe. However i can and have experienced 2 cars with motronic with knock and nothing was happening. You do have a copy of that chip i was using, and you can check if that has disabled knock control. If so then it was a bad tune, but if it does, then can you explain why was it knocking? + i recently heard from another 2 RS2 stock with no mapping, again knocking (in Greece)... Bad fuel batch? maybe, but my point is that these systems although elaborate, can also fail even on the best designed chips.

So either way you have + and - results. Yes, knock control is always important. Tune on the safe side and you will be fine either with motronic or vems or any aftermarket ECU.
Aftermarket stuff offer easy dual maps, launch control, anti lag which for some people are necessary, wheras for normal everyday cars isnt. My choice of vems was because i didnt want to rely on a tuner due to my previous bad experience with them when it comes to communication and aftersales, and i still stand by this considering their attitude!

Let us have the decency of allowing people to form their own opinions by stating facts rather than building a bad or a pretty picture for them thus turning them in one or the other direction...

[A80Avant]

id say so myself after re-reading all the thread. so id go back to my original post! MOre than enough info on the forum about aftermarket stuff!

[prj]

now that you have tuned so many cars, and everyone knows that you have done a good progress with motronic, it is easy to say that at the same time everyone knows that you dont like vems as well. As you stated a bit earlier, about noone believing in you when you started and a lot of people still dont, (fact that you dont like and i agree), why dont you have the curtesy of giving the benefit of the doubt to VEMS as well until they produce a good knock control system which they already have stated that they are introducing anyway?

I have nothing about VEMS. I just really like my knock control
I like the fact that VEMS is really cheap, and that you can assemble one for less than 400 euros yourself!
And sure, the knock control will be there soon, if the hardware is already there.

Surely there are better aftermarket ECUs out there, and TATECH is one of them which is more than 100% more expensive than VEMS. Also it requires a tuner to tune it for you which you then easily loose contact with and when an issue appears, you may be left with a car that is not working. Even from members in this forum, i know of examples that 'well known' and respected tuners have produced a few maps for them on their aftermarket ECU and fiddled with the more important areas of their map,and then left them with no idle control, no warm up enrichments etc... they just didnt bother.

Sorry, but you really misunderstood Tatech!
It does not require a tuner! You get an interface to tune it for free. It has datalogs and you can adjust everything yourself.
How else would I have been able to adjust someone's tune between two runs on the drag strip and make the car go from 12.7 to 12.3?

Obviously you dont do that because in motronic you dont need to. Its all taken care of, and you dont have to search for the values. Easier tune once you get your head around it.

Sorry, but this is ********!
Of course I tune idle. Of course I tune warmup enrichment!
I tune more than 30 maps, in some cases more. Else the car won't run right with bigger injectors. That is why I am good at Motronic.
How else would I have been able to tell you how much warmup enrichment EV14's need?
Perhaps you would like to ask Ross, how his car runs in the morning on warmup on EV14's?

Fact is that for people that want to play around with their engine and feel confident enough after educating themselves a bit in regards to mapping, VEMS is one of the cheapest AND safe enough ways to do it.

Yes, true, but Tatech is safer. And also more expensive.
I don't know where you got the impression that TATECH is not user mappable, when it clearly is.

Proof of that is the fact that i have been using/mapping it on my own as well as so many other owners and havent blown an engine yet, similar to what you say when it comes to your mapping. AND you do it part time+ get payed for it!!!! We do it on our own, as a hobby and not one audi engine has been blown yet using VEMS.

Vas, you are a lot more knowledgeable about your car than the average person.
Trust me, the people who know how to map their car themselves don't come to me for it.
For the others, letting me do my thing is much cheaper.

So what is this big deal about knock control?? I too believe it is important, i too want a good system in place to be safe. However i can and have experienced 2 cars with motronic with knock and nothing was happening. You do have a copy of that chip i was using, and you can check if that has disabled knock control. If so then it was a bad tune, but if it does, then can you explain why was it knocking? + i recently heard from another 2 RS2 stock with no mapping, again knocking (in Greece)... Bad fuel batch? maybe, but my point is that these systems although elaborate, can also fail even on the best designed chips.

I already said everything I had to say about this.
If you bring me the car and show me that it is knocking, I will look it over both hardware wise as well as chip wise and tell you why it keeps knocking.
If you advance the ignition way too much, lower knock control thresholds or tune all maps the same, then it always will be knocking.
Knock control is there to gap the bridge between 98 RON and 95 RON on a good tune, and not there if you do stupid things like run 13:1 AFR up top etc.

Aftermarket stuff offer easy dual maps, launch control, anti lag which for some people are necessary, wheras for normal everyday cars isnt.

I have all that on Motronic as well.

My choice of vems was because i didnt want to rely on a tuner due to my previous bad experience with them when it comes to communication and aftersales, and i still stand by this considering their attitude!

My condolences. Ask anyone who's car I tuned if they are happy with the service and aftersales service. I am sure no one will have something bad to say, because I always do my best.

Anyway, you wrote a lot of things which are based on wrong assumptions.
You assumed that:
1. Tatech is not user mappable - it is.
2. That I don't know where warmup enrichments, idle etc are - I do, and I tune them.
3. That all tuners are bad - well sorry, your bad luck
4. That Motronic does not have antilag, launch control, map switching - It does, how else would I be able to make dual maps for meth and lpg?

So please, before you again write a wall of text get your facts straight.

[GintsK]

Pri,

here you can found screenshots and probably full datalogs with working knock control. Guys use this firmwares somewhat like 2 years. It differs from official one with ability much better to see what you do and how it reacts during tuning process. Best about - you can see what exact cylinder knocks. Separated retard ability. Mixture enrichment ability. Two kinds of detection.
Here is description how it works:
http://www.vems.hu/wiki/index.php?pa...Andrey%2FKnock
You can find how something more in Andrey videos.

Main difference is just one window for each spark event. Comparing is performed with noise table or noise in previous power strokes of exact cylinder. Official one compare knock window noise with noise in window what follows.

Many VEMS tuners waiting for this "alternate" code to be implemented in official brach.

I personally used before official code to monitor knock. But to setup fully functional closed loop ctrl wasn't so sweet: it ends up with unwanted knock retards at low loads.

Pet, I am very agree with you about human ear (especially properly equipped ear). And also about useless of Phormula. Device is uprated for some reason.

Gints

[Jamo]

Hey Gints welcome to s2forum from the vemsforum! hoping for some of your vems knowledge to the audi masses

[A80Avant]

Hi Gints,

we are hoping for a good knock sensing control, although i must say that even that is only for an extra precaution. Otherwise engines do work if tuned with a proper hearing aid!

[4WheelDrifter]

Good debate guys.


It's good to get this stuff out in the open. But play nice.

[Jonnybravo]

Out of interest you say Tatech is the be all and end all, it is however £2500.

What does it do that the £1000 + vat Link Extreme doesn't as that seems like a LOT of ecu for the money.

Features can be seen here :

http://www.linkecu.com/products/engi...ecus/g4-xtreme

I know people that tune with that ecu and swear by it like Dimitri does for Moronic

NOT a dig at anyone btw, I don't map engines although I know many that do so I have seen cheap ecu's work perfectly to a Pectel that not even someone at Pectel had heard of

My understanding and usual advice to people looking to buy a ecu is only by what your TUNER feels comfortable with mapping, that doesn't make certain ecus inferior, its just personal taste.

People are drawn in by using super trick race bred ecus but in all honesty do you need a pit lane speed limiter on your track car, or road car? I doubt it. I find it hard to believe that a suitable ecu has to run to so much money.

If closed loop knock control is the answer to all our problems what is your opinion on the Link Prj ? don't baffle me with science, just a opinion.

[A80Avant]

I must admit this is what I hear from a lot of forum members I see in person, and probably the reason why a lot of forum members don't bother. I myself have gotten fed up lately with peoples responses on the forum. I thought the idea what paul and mik did originally was somewhere people could share info etc. It always seems to be the same people arguing as well.

sometimes over info they share.When things written are not completely right, its better if somone corrects it or proves it wrong, rather than having only one person being 'loud' overshadowing every1 else and creating wrong impressions. For all those that have little experience with the S2/RS2, the last thing you want is this forum giving wrong answers to them.