5cyl engine, 60-2 without hall - wasted spark, how to

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Hi.
I have problem with configure 60-2 trigger without hall in 5 cyl engine on VEMS.
Do you have any sugestion to it?
I'm thinking about run it like a 10cyl engine in wasted spark (if 6 cyl can run on 60-2 without hall (something like 3 cyl engine) why 5 cyl can't?

[prj]

Hi.
I have problem with configure 60-2 trigger without hall in 5 cyl engine on VEMS.
Do you have any sugestion to it?
I'm thinking about run it like a 10cyl engine in wasted spark (if 6 cyl can run on 60-2 without hall (something like 3 cyl engine) why 5 cyl can't?

Because the ECU does not know engine phase.
In a 4 stroke engine two revolutions are needed for a full cycle. The 60-2 trigger wheel has a missing tooth ONCE per revolution, because it is connected to the crankshaft.

So how will you know in which phase you are without a sensor on the camshaft?

10 cyl have continous injection (non-sequential), it just sprays all the time.

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But vems can fire also when cyl isn't in the "work" phase, but in the exhaust phase, so why it shouldn't work???

[Jamo]

This cannot be done, end of. google it MOTEC, VEMS, Haltech every ecu provider will tell you the same you can't run wasted spark on a 5 cylinder

http://www.msextra.com/doc/ms3/engine_config.html

[prj]

But vems can fire also when cyl isn't in the "work" phase, but in the exhaust phase, so why it shouldn't work???

VEMS is not only controlling spark, it is controlling fuel too.

This has nothing to do with spark, how will it know when to inject? Or you want to run continuous injection with 5 cylinders injecting all the time?

This is like _BASICS_ of Engine management.

[Error404]

why do you want to run wasted spark anyway?

[Kieron20V]

VEMS is not only controlling spark, it is controlling fuel too.

This has nothing to do with spark, how will it know when to inject? Or you want to run continuous injection with 5 cylinders injecting all the time?

This is like _BASICS_ of Engine management.

But you can inject semi sequentially, and it will still run.
Emisions and idle will be better with fully sequential injection where the injector is firing into a port on the intake stroke, but all the books I have read say that it doesnt matter when the fuel is injected, as long as it is the right amount in the port it will still be ingested, just with a small efficiency drop. At higher rpm and duty cycles, the injectors can be almost static anyway so they are not always firing into an open port.


034 has configured 5 cyl cars to run configured as a 10cyl wasted spark engine. It is physically impossible to run 5 cyl wasted spark because no 2 cylinders are ever in the same tdc position.

http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=131&t=42292&sid=f2470e1b96ab51697061b3abf4d208c2&start=20

[Kieron20V]

why do you want to run wasted spark anyway?

Its not actually possible to run 5cyl wasted spark, it is only configuring the ecu as 10 cyl wasted spark.

[prj]

But you can inject semi sequentially, and it will still run.
Emisions and idle will be better with fully sequential injection where the injector is firing into a port on the intake stroke, but all the books I have read say that it doesnt matter when the fuel is injected, as long as it is the right amount in the port it will still be ingested, just with a small efficiency drop. At higher rpm and duty cycles, the injectors can be almost static anyway so they are not always firing into an open port.

Semi sequential would mean you are firing injectors in batches.
How would you set up batches on a 5 cylinder engine exactly?
You wouldn't really. You'd just spray all 5 at the same time.

Or in case how Bosch did it with CIS, is where all injectors were continuously open and it only altered the fuel pressure to meter fuel.

034 has configured 5 cyl cars to run configured as a 10cyl wasted spark engine. It is physically impossible to run 5 cyl wasted spark because no 2 cylinders are ever in the same tdc position.

Not strictly true. You could spark twice for every cylinder, on both the intake and the exhaust stroke and batch fire all 5 injectors.
This is a horrible setup though.

Either way, on any 4 stroke engine you /will/ need a camshaft sensor to determine phase if you want to run proper sequential injection. Ignition /can/ be done off of a 60-2 trigger wheel alone using the way I just described.

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So how it work on Auditrigger configuration without hall?? Vems also have only signal from crank and it work (only sometimes triggee error).
Vems is realy stupid, if it can't use only 60-2 crank trigger to run 5 cyl, but it can use only 2 VR sensors on crank to run it....

[Billman]

With Auditrigger Vems sees all sensors as Motronic. 135 for the angle, and Hall sensor + Crankshaft positioning sensor for cylinder position. If one fails then you get trigger errors.

[prj]

So how it work on Auditrigger configuration without hall?? Vems also have only signal from crank and it work (only sometimes triggee error).

It doesn't, unless you spark twice per revolution and fire all injectors at the same time.

Vems is realy stupid, if it can't use only 60-2 crank trigger to run 5 cyl, but it can use only 2 VR sensors on crank to run it....

I think you should read how engine management works. Or even how a four stroke engine works, before trying to use aftermarket ECM's.

[Jamo]

Vems can easily run 60-2, I think you should pay for a specialist to setup the ECU initially.

[Billman]

Vems can easily run 60-2, I think you should pay for a specialist to setup the ECU initially.

Yes, but he needs an extra signal for Crankhome.

[prj]

Yes, but he needs an extra signal for Crankhome.

Any ECU does if you want to do sequential injection. Never mind stuff like camshaft adjustment etc.