5cyl engine, 60-2 without hall - wasted spark, how to

[Jamo]

Yes, but he needs an extra signal for Crankhome.

I thnk a specialist would know that

[Jamo]

BTW http://www.vemssupport.com/forum/ind...topicseen.html

[prj]

Come on, this is not rocket science...
If you pick up any book or even think logically a bit on how to determine the injection or ignition moment on a four stroke engine, you will arrive at the conclusion, that you need some sort of trigger, that gets fired once per two revolutions of the engine.

And pretty much the only place you can take that from easily is the camshaft, as that gets rotated at half the speed.
That's why engines have a timing belt, chain or gear drive, that's why it's needed in the first place.

Really, it's the basics of the four stroke engine itself.
IMO a large benefit of aftermarket ECU management is lost if you have to "run to the specialist for everything".

[prj]

BTW http://www.vemssupport.com/forum/ind...topicseen.html

Everything they say there is what has been said here before.
Except they put it more elegantly - run it as a two stroke engine - which is what you would be doing.
And that is horrible, might as well go back to a carburetor then for injection with a single big injector. Like mono-motronic did it.

[Jamo]

I know, I'm pointing out that two sources are saying the same thing

[button]

People's - i can run 5 cyl audi engine with only 2 vr on crank (whitout hal on cam). An it should work identicaly that on 60-2....

[prj]

People's - i can run 5 cyl audi engine with only 2 vr on crank (whitout hal on cam). An it should work identicaly that on 60-2....

You can also run a 5 cyl Audi engine with a carburetor. Does not mean it's good.

[button]

But am I asking that this is good or wrong?!!

Nissan on this config (whitout hall) have 525hp and 730Nm on hx35. I don't think it's bad output power

[prj]

But am I asking that this is good or wrong?!!

Nissan on this config (whitout hall) have 525hp and 730Nm on hx35. I don't think it's bad output power

And? There are carburetted cars that make over 1000 horsepower.
Does that mean it's efficient and using modern technology? No. It can go fast in a straight line, that's it.

The fact is, you are probably too lazy to install a trigger, so you take a shortcut.
You can run any four stroke engine as a two stroke, does not make it a good idea. Of course if the only thing that is important is "pedal to the metal" in a straight line, then forget what I say.

I guess I just like to do things right, and I like having the ability to respond to mass/air changes faster than an entire revolution of the engine. Never mind having things like cylinder-individual closed loop ignition based knock control to make more power. But I guess you don't use any of that.

[quattro84]

I don't get it why people buy expensive aftermarket ECU's without using it's full potential or knowing the basics to set it up properly.
If the main goal is to reach higher power levels a simple mechanical style injection system like a K-jet/kugelfischer would do, NASCAR still run barrell style carburetors to reach 900hp (i will go and wash my mouth now...) with acceptable BSFC numbers.

Only reason for the OEM back then to switch to computerised injection is to gain control of mixture and finally to be emission complient.

[EBR]

I don't get it why people buy expensive aftermarket ECU's without using it's full potential or knowing the basics to set it up properly.
If the main goal is to reach higher power levels a simple mechanical style injection system like a K-jet/kugelfischer would do, NASCAR still run barrell style carburetors to reach 900hp (i will go and wash my mouth now...) with acceptable BSFC numbers.

Only reason for the OEM back then to switch to computerised injection is to gain control of mixture and finally to be emission complient.

Even NASCAR has moved on and will now use fuel injection:

http://www.nascar.com/news/111018/in...tor/index.html

They have found out that: "The technology's moved on. It's time to move on."

[quattro84]

Hmm, perhaps this had to do with preventing insane horsepower levels, same with controlled ignition timing limitations at top fuel dragsters.

[adam g]

Im not sure how much you can read across from an 034 ECU to VEMS but you should be able to run with the 60-2 wheel alone if you run wasted spark. You still only need to fire the injectors once per 2 engine revolutions (but in the right order 12453). The attached shows the engine phase set up.

[gnutz2]

Just to clarify the wasted spark argument.

You CAN run wasted spark on a 5 cyl engine with no cam sensor, and the op was right, you need to run the same timing as a 10 cyl engine but move the outputs to a different order.

S2 golf has been running wasted for nearly 6 years, just a 15-1 reference pins on the flywheel.

[prj]

I don't think most of us deny it is completely possible, I guess people just think it's a bad idea to go 30 years backwards in time in regards to engine management, all because you can't be fussed installing a single sensor