hydro vs vac

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  • Pirvu Eugen
    S2Forum Extremist
    • Apr 2007
    • 1978
    • Country: Romania

    #16
    That pump is used to increase the Diesel fuel pressure to about 6 bar and has the vacuum pump built in.....but...again...needs oil.
    The old type vacuum pump from the 1.9 TDI engines is nice....but needs oil also...and is driven by the cam.

    Comment

    • A80Avant
      S2Forum Obsessed
      • Sep 2005
      • 10873
      • Country: Greece

      #17
      VEMS can use the ECU map sensor to control when the pump will start/stop operating. It will get more complicated if another sensor needs to be mounted inline for VEMS to control and i think its not necessary.

      The electric pump will only be required if vaccum is above a certain level which is not enoughto pressurise the servo OR durring positive pressure, so that the servo is always under vaccum. Hence my thinking that since servo wont be damaged in any way if it always sees vacuum(that's whats happening in non boosted cars anyway), the electric pump can be put to work only on those specific situations. Say for example from 90kpa (100kpa being 0 boost), and above. So whenever you are accelerating, even though the servo may still have enough pressure, the electric pump will switch on.

      My concern is, if the electric pump will fail prematurely by working this way or not.

      Comment

      • Pirvu Eugen
        S2Forum Extremist
        • Apr 2007
        • 1978
        • Country: Romania

        #18
        Is not ok to use the map sensor from the ecu to control this...because, even iff you are under 2 bar off boost, the brake booster will hold the vacuum until the brake pedal is pressed. So is no need to operate the pump in this situation. You need another map sensor to control the brake booster vacuum only and control the pump. My ideea
        Dont know iff Vems has another input and output for this...the ecuation is simple though.
        But..again...i used my car without these complicated things without issues.

        Comment

        • Us4
          S2Forum Hobbyist
          • May 2008
          • 10
          • Country: Latvia

          #19
          Could this be any good?

          http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/New-S...Q5fAccessories

          Comment

          • Pirvu Eugen
            S2Forum Extremist
            • Apr 2007
            • 1978
            • Country: Romania

            #20
            yes...is ok! This is with membrane...the Audi ones are with carbon vanes!

            Comment

            • A80Avant
              S2Forum Obsessed
              • Sep 2005
              • 10873
              • Country: Greece

              #21
              im not sure how this would connect to the system though, as it is meant to be connected to the vaccum servo alone(?)

              i presume the switch senses when the vaccum is above the 20inch and switches off, while it turns on again when it is below that. However that means that again it will work continuesly no matter if the servo is already fully pressurised.

              So ideally you need a sensor that tells you that the servo is fully loaded, and doesnt need any more vaccum to get pressurised.

              I do have some problem calculating the figures correctly, as vaccum is expressed in various different ways. For example in kpa figures, the lower the figure, the higher the vaccum, but when you put that into the online calculators, you dont get the desired equivalents! haha

              Comment

              • A80Avant
                S2Forum Obsessed
                • Sep 2005
                • 10873
                • Country: Greece

                #22
                here is a pdf which explains the working systems of 2 audi electric pumps.

                apparently there is an open and a closed loop system and the open system seems to be similar to what i mentioned above, being able to handle the pump with VEMS. It looks as though that on the open loop, the ECU 'calculates' the pressure in the servo indirectly, by taking into account the TPS, Load(ie MAP), brake light and engine speed(rpm). With that it enables/disables the pump.

                So all that can be applied in VEMS but with certain assumptions. The only thing that VEMS cannot 'see' is the brake light. So if you define what rpm/pressure/TPS position you want the pump to work in, it should be able to at least cover for the unlikely even of running out of vaccum on the servo unit at all times.
                Attached Files

                Comment

                • Pirvu Eugen
                  S2Forum Extremist
                  • Apr 2007
                  • 1978
                  • Country: Romania

                  #23
                  At my engine i had ~-0.5 bar at idle. I would calibrate the switch to open the pump circuit when the vacuum is at -0.5 bar at the booster. In the event that the vacuum is going less then -0.5.....-0.4-0.3. The switch is closing the circuit and the pump starts until the -0.5 bar is reached.

                  Comment

                  • Pirvu Eugen
                    S2Forum Extremist
                    • Apr 2007
                    • 1978
                    • Country: Romania

                    #24
                    Originally posted by A80Avant
                    here is a pdf which explains the working systems of 2 audi electric pumps.

                    apparently there is an open and a closed loop system and the open system seems to be similar to what i mentioned above, being able to handle the pump with VEMS. It looks as though that on the open loop, the ECU 'calculates' the pressure in the servo indirectly, by taking into account the TPS, Load(ie MAP), brake light and engine speed(rpm). With that it enables/disables the pump.

                    So all that can be applied in VEMS but with certain assumptions. The only thing that VEMS cannot 'see' is the brake light. So if you define what rpm/pressure/TPS position you want the pump to work in, it should be able to at least cover for the unlikely even of running out of vaccum on the servo unit at all times.
                    These sistems are used on cars with automatic gearboxes mostly...i think is too complicated...at least the closed loop one.... The open loop is more easy....

                    Comment

                    • A80Avant
                      S2Forum Obsessed
                      • Sep 2005
                      • 10873
                      • Country: Greece

                      #25
                      apparently, even the new cars dont always use a sensor to calculate the excact pressure that lies in the servo. They assume it by other features (open loop).

                      in the closed loop situation, i dont think VEMS can be able to control that extra sensor to define when the pump should open and close, but since the open loop is already adapted, it should be ok to run.

                      Comment

                      • S2central.net
                        Retired OG Mod
                        • Jul 2003
                        • 16590
                        • Country: Northern Ireland

                        #26
                        Danger of overthinking this one chaps...

                        I think all that is needed is a robust one way valve from manifold to a vacuum reservoir bottle with a connection from there to the vacuum servo. Depending on size of vac reservoir you should have enough reserves for servo assistance for left foot braking... which you aren't going to be doing often unless you are the Stig on maximum attack on a closed road somewhere !
                        Paul Nugent
                        Webmaster http://S2central.net
                        Administrator http://S2forum.com

                        1994 S2 Coupe ABY - aka Project Lazarus
                        2001 A6 allroad 2.5TDi - family tank
                        2003 S4 Avant 4.2 V8 - daily burble

                        Purveyor of HomeFries and Exclusive agent for Samco hose kits (S2/RS2)

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                        • A80Avant
                          S2Forum Obsessed
                          • Sep 2005
                          • 10873
                          • Country: Greece

                          #27
                          Are there any vacuum reservoirs around one could see?

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                          • A80Avant
                            S2Forum Obsessed
                            • Sep 2005
                            • 10873
                            • Country: Greece

                            #28
                            double post
                            Last edited by A80Avant; 29 July 2011, 20:17.

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                            • driftin jo
                              S2Forum Fiend
                              • Sep 2007
                              • 2222
                              • Country: United Kingdom

                              #29

                              Comment

                              • A80Avant
                                S2Forum Obsessed
                                • Sep 2005
                                • 10873
                                • Country: Greece

                                #30
                                hmm... interesting...

                                so that tube just gets the feed from the IM then goes to the servo and that's it? nice and simple!

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