Gong nuts on my 200 20V with the headlamp washers

[200t]

Hi there.

I have done my little bit of research around the forum and found some interesting things on the topic.
However, bottom line is that my Headlight washer relay is going nuts. It won´t stop clikcing randomly ( without any specific frequence) and I can´t seem to find out about the wiring going in or out of the relay.
I have read about Audi Coupes, S2, RS2s...but I wonder if anyone could throw some light on this particular model.
I doubt there would be a lot of differences, so any advice would be helpful and appreciated.
I did found around the forum some Audi 80,90, wiring diagrams, but I don´t know if these would be compatible 100% with my 200 20V.
I do have the Bently manual, but since the 200 20V in the US did not have any headlight washers, diagram is not there.

Thanks a lot

[UrS4boy]

443955535 "J39" aka "275" headlight washer relay info

The 200 20V headlight washer system is controlled by a relay, 443955535 (marked "275"). This relay is in position 4 in the black relay box. The B3s, B4s and RS2s used the same relay in the same location so the wiring might be the same. I think the wiring diagrams call it a "J39"

Here is some info from S2Central.net:

http://www.s2central.net/S2_Schematics/D/D06-15.pdf

http://www.s2central.net/S2_Schematics/headlight_washers.pdf

Here is the 275 hiding in the shadows, in Position 4, just behind the grey "208" fuel pump relay in Position 10.

[200t]

WOWOOW
You're the best........So much for the washer relay.
I really thought it was actually in the auxiliary panel.

Ok, so, here is another tricky one.....Wht is then the position 6 in the Auxiliary panel where it says "IRA-RELAY".
I do have a relay there ( which is actually the one going nuts thinking it was the headlight washer one ) that is PN 4H0 951 253A and it seems to be shorting somewhere

What is the IRA-Relay thing? I have ( limited ) access to info and it points out to "Intensive" wash, but I don´t believe 200 20V´s had that option ( V8´s did).

So, AM I suppose to have a relay in that "IRA-Relay" position? If yes, what does it do?

Thanks a million...I really appreciated.....
Cheers

[200t]

OK, I went to vagcat catalogue and I saw that in the auxiliary relay control plate there is another ( ??!?!) relay saying the following:

(15) 447955532
time control unit / for models with intensive windscreen washer system / relay location: / F >> 44-K-150 000
9 lhd


And another line:
(15) 447955532
time control unit / for models with intensive windscreen washer system / relay location: / F 44-L-000 001>>
1 lhd


So, do I have Intensive windscreen washer system??
I know it sounds stupid, but do I have that?
I don´t have any additional button like on the V8's saying "INT"........Was that an option?

I am really

And that "strange" realy in the IRA-Relay position.......maybe an added one ( by some nosense mechanic when trying to fix something)????

Puzzled, really puzzled....

[UrS4boy]

PN 4H0 951 253A

Are you sure about that PN? Doesn't show up in the catalogue as an Audi part. However, 4H0951253A seems to be a standard 4 pin Bosch 40 amp relay, possibly labeled "643" or "645". Easily replaced.

[UrS4boy]

So, do I have Intensive windscreen washer system??
I know it sounds stupid, but do I have that?

Check your build tag. The build codes for the intensive windscreen washer system were:

9K0 = Without Intensive Washing System For Windshield

9K1 = Intensive Washing System For Windshield

[200t]

Thanks URS4 Boy...

How can I check my Build tag? What it is that I am suppose to look for?

On another hand.....I have another big doubt.

My mechanic called me and told me that ther is a Relay in the AUX PANEL UNDER THE STEERING WHEEL that seems to be "old".....signs of burnt here and there.

Anyhow, he sends me a picture, and it is relay "214" with PN: 443951253K

So I serched in the net and saw that it was the afterrun relay......But looking further I came to the conclusion that that relay is not suppose to be there........

In VagCat , this is what I found out:
(15) 447965571A
control unit for water pump, relay fan stage 1 / relay location: / F 44-L-000 001>>
2 / 3B


So, again, what is wrong with my relays?????

ANyway, Am I right about the 214? Is there any place this relay should be in the AU relay panel ( under the steering wheel).
My 200 20V is a european spec, July 1990 registered and haas BOSE and ALARM, in case this is something wrth saying....

Thanks

[UrS4boy]

443951253K is an older Audi 100 air conditioning-related relay, likely used to bring the electric radiator fan on when the A/C is turned on. I don't know C3 200 20VTs (we didn't get any in Canada) *BUT* the C4 UrS4/S6s got 214 relays that were used for fan control (and other things). 8D0951253A is the PN (might be marked 373 or 214??)

C4 Auxiliary Relay Panel 1 info:

http://forums.quattroworld.com/s4s6/msgs/152019.phtml

This photo shows one of the "214" fan relays (one is missing) and a "319" Intensive Washer relay (PN 447955532)

[200t]

Allright, I have been doing some intensive search on my relays.

First of all, it might sound stupid at this stage, but I have to ask.

- On my under-the-dash relay panel I have the "324" unit fro the after-run water pump and 1st speed radiator fan.

Now, left of that ( on position 1 according to ETKA) ther is the relay 443951253K, which, like you said UrS4, looks like an older part number......and yes, it does turn on the 1st speed fan when Climate control is working ( any position except ECON) as when the mechanic took it off, fan stopped working.

Anyhow, my stupid question is actually related to this.
Is the 1st fan speed trigered by 2 RELAYS? Or just the "324" ( for both after -run AND when A/C is on)?

I thought it was this way.......

Now, looking at the fact that there might be 2 separates relays ( the 324 and the first stage fan speed), and that the relay I have is the one causing problems ( click, click, click without any specific reason, even with Climate control y OFF position), I would need to know the exact Part number for this "1st speed fan relay".


Then, on my quest for the relays, I searched for my VN number ( 44 M N004859) and related relays and I don´t find anything regarding THAT specific 1st speed fan relay on any possible position.

[200t]

This is an actual picture ( sent by my mechanic ) from my relay panel under the dash.
Notice that the first relay ( marked as 645) is that old PN relay and seems to be used for first fan speed but ONLY when A/C is on.

If there is actually a first stage fan relay, what is the Part number for it?

Do URs4 have similar "logic"? ( 2 separate relays)?

I will post all my listings on relays, according to ETKA, which some of them do not match at all

[UrS4boy]

After-run Auxiliary Coolant Pump and Fan Switch and 324 Control Module Info

I've got to go to sleep (23:55 here) and I will start helping you again in 8 hrs. However, in the meantime, I will leave you with this to read through (it all):

After-run Auxiliary Coolant Pump and Fan Switch and 324 Control Module Info

http://forums.quattroworld.com/s4s6/msgs/21503.phtml

This was written for the C4 UrS4/S6 but the basic logic will be the same, the F98 triggers the 324 which then brings the fan and pump on via a 214 relay:

"The F98 switch triggers a control module (No. 324 right kick panel -see photo below) that keeps the pump on for a fixed period, e.g. 10 min. or until the temperature drops enough.

In general, the after-run pump and stage 1 of the rad fan only come on if the temperatures *AFTER* engine shut down exceed 110 C. If this happens the F98 Thermal Switch triggers the J155 After-run pump and fan control "324" module to fire up the pump and stage 1 of the rad fan until the temp drops to 97 C or 10 minutes have gone by, whichever comes first.

But that is skipping ahead. Backing up, the power for the after-run pump comes from the No.30 constant power bus in a red wire to the S61 fuse (a branch of that red wire also goes to the S26/102 ECU fuse that feeds pin T55/18 on the ECU (this is for the AAN, ABY/ADU different numbers but the same idea). After the S61, the wire is white/black and heads to the two pin After-run pump connector.

At the after-run pump connector, a second white/black wire branches off to the F98 thermal switch. When this switch closes at 110 C or above, the current flows to the J155 ("324") after-run pump and fan control module in a red/green wire going to pin 2/30 on the module. The module itself is energized by switch power from the J17 fuel pump relay via the S73 thermal fuse that also feeds the O2 sensor heater. From the S73, a yellow wire feeds the J155 (324) module at Pin 4/87F. This is a switched power signal so it must help the 324 determine whether the engine (and ignition) is off. If the engine is on, then even if the temps are up, then I don't think the after run-pump and/or fan will run because the 324 says, "Nope, not happening, let the water pump do its thing". (so to speak).

With the signal from the closed F98 thermal switch, the J155 (324) control module opens up a ground for the after-run pump at the module's Pin 8/87. Power flows through the V51 after-run pump in the white/black wire and out via the brown/black wire connected to the control module's Pin 8/87 (which then flows out to ground (earth) at the module's Pin 6/31).

In the meantime, the J69 (214) Stage 1 rad fan relay has been sitting with power (but no ground (earth)) from the S19 (AAN number) fuse via a red/white wire to J69 pin 2/30 and a red wire to J69 pin 5/85. When the J155 (324) gets the closed signal from the F98 thermal switch, a ground for the J69 (214) relay is opened at J69 pin 4/86. This pulls the relay on and power then flows through the S19 fuse, through the J69 (214) and out to the V7 rad fan (Stage 1) as a red/white wire from J69 Pin 8/87.

This continues on until the temp drops to 97 C and the F98 thermal switch opens again or the internal timer in the J155 (324) control module times out at 10 minutes. Presumably if the temp was not less than 110 C then, the process would repeat itself."

[200t]

Great.
Got it. I believe the 200 20V would work with same logic.
So, what I have ketp clear is that the 324 ( Control Unit for after-run ) will pass thru the 214 to have the fan working on 1st speed.
That would be when ignition is off.

So, here are my latest questions?
How about when the car is on and Climate control ON ( in any mode, except ECON)?
Is the 214 Relay absoltely needed so the 1st speed of the fan would work?

These are my conclusions on your writting, as I see that the 324 will give current to the 214....Is that right?
Also, from my notes, I have noted that the 214 is J69 position.

You talk about red, yellow wires, but on my picture, on the "645"-relay position ( which I am starting to think that a 214 should go there), this is the wires going to that location ( 4 pin):
- RED( BIG)
- 2 cabkes cmoing to another pin: RED ( big ) / RED ( small)
- BROWN/YELLOW
- BROWN/YELLOW

These are the cables at the ( supposively J69 connection) and where my 645 relay is now, and which I would replace by the 214 if I am sure it is the correct layout.....


Thanks a lot

[200t]

Hi again.
Is there somewhere were the locations are marked in the pannel? ( J69, J115, etc?)

My mechanic just told me he hasn´t been able to find any code related to these...

Cheers

[200t]

So I have taking my Relay panel picture ( two posts above) and have come with these names/locations of each one of the relays:

POSITION NUMBER ON RELAY Part Number Description
1 645 ?????
2 324 447965571A After Run Control Unit
3 320 447947115D Relay for Interior lights
4 292 443951307B Lights left ON Buzzer relay
5 281 443919469B Check Headlight bulbs
6 306 443919578H A/C Clutch Engagement relay
7 217 443919469B 3rd stage relay OR something on fuel pump ( based on 217 number)
8 Sound system ( OK)
9 ?? Missing???
10 y 11 285 OK Electric windows/roof
12 76 OK ABS


So it is really about that position one 645 relay.........If it should be ( or not) the 214 for the 1st speed fan relay, but does it have any logic considering the cable colors coming from that position ? Could that be it?

Thanks

[UrS4boy]

POSITION NUMBER ON RELAY Part Number Description
1 645 ?????
2 324 447965571A After Run Control Unit
3 320 447947115D Relay for Interior lights
4 292 443951307B Lights left ON Buzzer relay
5 281 443919469B Check Headlight bulbs
6 306 443919578H A/C Clutch Engagement relay
7 217 443919469B 3rd stage relay OR something on fuel pump ( based on 217 number)
8 Sound system ( OK)
9 ?? Missing???
10 y 11 285 OK Electric windows/roof
12 76 OK ABS

I am up and working on figuring out your "issue". I am cross-checking your PNs with relay positions. You are mostly (but not 100%) right. (More later - need to have breakfast).

In the interim, I found this (below). Position "1" is the "IRA Relay" (If only I knew what the Irish Republican Army was doing in an Audi). But things do get moved around. For example Position 12 is for the rear windscreen washer on an Avant but yours shows the "76" ABS relay that should be in position 8 actually in position 12.



In the