Gong nuts on my 200 20V with the headlamp washers

[UrS4boy]

Audi 200 20VT 3B auxiliary relay panel PN call out

Okay breakfast over, back at it.

Looking at the relay panel under the 200 20VT dash, in the photo and diagram, concentrating on Positions 1 to 12:





1. Position 1:



I can't find a photo that shows both the "645" and the PN in the same photo (easily done but people tend not to do that) but the PN that seems to be associated with it is a 4H0951253A from an AUDI A4 B8 2.0 T, i.e. a very new relay. It seems to be *just* a four pin relay.

Information that I found for Position 1 says that it should be an 8D0951253A (note the last 7 digits 951253A are the same). This is a relay for the electric fan and was used after VIN 44-L-000001 (after the start of the 1990 model year). Would be labeled "373"



2. Position 2:

Agree it is 324 447965571A After Run Control Unit. Double height, single relay holder.



3. Position 3:

It a 320 447947115D Time Control Module (not Relay) for Interior lights. Double height.

Controls the dimming feature for the interior lights up to the 1992 model year. "When entering or exiting your vehicle it's always nice to have the interior lights turn on and then slowly fade out. This relay controls the interior on/off and dimming for the footwell, interior, and door lights. If your lights no longer turn on when entering or exiting the vehicle, this can be a sure culprit."



Note: For the later 200 20VT, i.e. after 44-L-090001, Position 3 would be the 443951253AA fuel pump relay. "219"



4. Position 4

Agree 292 443951307B Lights (and Radio) left ON Buzzer relay



5. Position 5

Agree: 281 443919469B Check Headlight bulbs



6. Position 6

Agree: 306 443919578H A/C Clutch Engagement relay (electronic/magnetic coupling clutch on the A/C compressor)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/OEM-Audi-Vol...-/251424044075



7. Position 7 (next row down, far left):

217 = 443951253S which was replaced by a 357906381B at some point. 357906381B is a 70 Amp relay for the electric fan, running at 500W and 700W (big draw, this is NOT stage 1, it is Stages 2 and 3). Not related to the after-run pump and fan system.





8. Position 8

Not sure whether 8 is empty or 9 ??

8 could be two things:

a) 8A0927826 - double relay for anti-lock braking system up to VIN 44-L-020000 or

b) 8D0951253A - relay for vehicles with sound system "373" after VIN 44-L-020001

9. Position 9 - 447955532 "time control module for vehicles with heavy duty windshield washer" up to VIN 44-K-150000 (end of 89 module year). Maybe only "LHD"



10. Positions 10 and 11 - Window and sunroof control module

Shoudl be a 443959257A. Might also be a 443959257B. Can't find a photo with a PN and "285" in the same shot. Sometimes "286"




Related:



12. Position 12 - rear window wipe wash control module for avant *OR* ABS double height relay PN 8A0927826 or like yours, 443927826 "76" with the external fuse.





That's really I've got. Hope it helps.

(It better - that was a lot of work).

[200t]

Hey URs4
Thanks a million for that great effort....

So based on this, which seems more or less to be aligned with what I have, the Key question here is about the position where it says IRA-Relay.....

About that: Could that be the 1st stage Fan speed Relay????

That is actually the relay that clicks like crazy without any reason ( CLimate Control OFF) but car running.
So, If it is a 1st stage relay, what would be the inputs on that?

Could that be similar to the "214" Relay ( position J69 ) you describe in the After Run detailed explanation above?
Where/How current gets to it and how/why it is activated ( or should be activated)

I think this is really now the key question. Does the "645" and "373" any different? From what I have seen in thei diagram pictures, they look exactly as they do the same function.....

Getting there.....I think.

[veneto rs2]

Hi

I'm talking RS2 here but I suppose the logic it's the same for the older Lady aswell.

The 1st stage 214 relay in position 1 in the fuses box works for both:
After run system
A/C continuos 1st fan speed when on

It's common that this relay gets mad and starts to behave badly when the 324 447965571A After Run Control Unit it's faulty.
Many things could (and do) happen i.e. fan continuosly on with key out till it drains the battery and/or cooks the 214

Hope this helps

[UrS4boy]

New Relay Panel Maps

Got these photos courtesy of James R. (rosserj) on the quattroworld 5000/200/V8 forum.

I *still* don't know what an IRA relay is or does.

The German and English maps together:



Zoomed onto the English map

[Nuvo]

I *still* don't know what an IRA relay is or does.

I expect that'll be for the self destruct incendiary function.

[UrS4boy]

I *still* don't know what an IRA relay is or does.

Somebody pointed me to SJM Autotechnik where he (Scott Mockry) says:

"AUX RELAY LOCATION: 1989 Audi 200TQ

On my late 1989 200TQ (11/88 build date), the auxiliary relay panel had the relays arranged as follows.

Top Row, left to right
Two circuit breakers, Driver side heated seat relay, Passenger side heated seat relay

Middle Row, Left to Right
Injector cooling fan relay, Seat Belt Buzzer Relay, Oil Pressure warning system relay, A/C Relay, Lamp Control Unit-Front

Bottom Row, Left to Right
Radiator Fan High Speed Relay, ABS Control Relay with 10 Amp Fuse, Window and Sunroof Relay (double wide relay) "

http://www.sjmautotechnik.com/trouble_shooting/elec.html#knee

Injector COOLING FAN ??!!

[twoqu]

For what its worth I think the IRA relay is the one for the Intensive windscreen washer which going by the VIN should be a 447 955 532. If you don't have the additional washer tank , then you don't have the Intensive wash. Not sure where exactly the spout is but it should be obviously in the engine bay. I think if the washer jets are fed from both sides implies an intensive wash systems.
Te other thing to mention is that due to the fact the relay connectors slide onto the plate its not uncommon for them to be replaced out of sequence if somebody has been messing about. Its best to make a note of the part numbers and positions and then cross reference. Its then a matter of deduction as to whether they are the correct type and in the right place. Other than that you need to either test where the wires go to to verify the function. If the wires go to the stalk then its not going to be a rad fan wire. Or try to identify the wires by their colours and size. Anything carrying a heavy electrical load (power) would be larger than a signal wire for exampe!

[domas]

ok, I see you are going crazy there. my 200 20vt does not have ira relay. My money is on injector cooling which is only applicable for 10vt engines (not sure about 10v n/a)

been through that and I have actually made a diagram of whats what and so on.
IIRC i know what all relays do in my car, at least I was though all of them.
Here is my picture and diagram. keep in mind that numbering starts at 2nd row and then follows to 3rd row and only then continues at the top row (additional relays)

Sorry for native Lithuanian text in my hand drawn diagram, this wasn't supposed to be used in other countries.
Quick translations:
2: Brown relay. Mine does not have short number, only part number. IIRC it should have number 324. it is different from audi 100 models that use 272 relay in the fusebox under the hood instead.
9+10: just saying that this is taking 2 spots, a single relay
11: 76 has a fuse in. (abs combination relay)
14: 2 big fuses for seat heating.

Else, you can google numbers. If you can't find it, let me know.

Regarding cooling:
200 20v has 3 relays, 2x 214's under the hood, positions 2 and 3 iirc, that are main power relays for Middle and High speed fan.
The brown relay (sometimes called 324) activates the electric coolant pump and some of the main 214 relays (cant remember which speed after-run is using)

Please restate your last question as I can't follow what is unclear to you anymore.

[200t]

Hi guys.
Sorry to have taaken a few days to ccome back on the issue.

OK, so, this is my 2 cents on my relays, and what I might have found regarding my original issue with the Climate Control.

First of all, the "famous" IRA relay.....OK, so, in MY PARTICULAR CASE ( my 200 20V ), I do have what seems to be an IRA-Relay. I have the same panel picture you are showing. Now, about the IRA-Relay. My thought is that someone at Audi had an illegal substance while naming this relay/function.
Now, let´s have a little imagination ( the guy at Audi certainly did smoke something illegal) and let´s split the IRA word: I, as in 1, as in 1st.......RA, as in RAD, as in RADIATOR.....
So, the only thing I can think of is that IRA Relay stands for Ist Speed Radiator.....
After many searches, my actual set up in the car and the actual working functions on the car lead to that.....

Besides this, going thru the Bentley cheking for signals, there were another few things wrong:
- First, the LOW pressure switch on the car was actually NOT a LOw pressure switch but actually a High pressure switch......I think this would have a big impact on the climate control functions as it had the opposite in terms of what was supposed to do
- There was also another relay at the A/C clutch soket, as the car had a 4 PIN relay, which was used on old Audis 200. The actual, good one, has 5 Pin as the 5th pin would send a signal to the ECU to run on slightly higher rpms when A/C on.
- And finally, we found also that the Temperature Control Flap Motor ( The Bosch motor) was not working and the flaps would only stay in the "hot only " zone.
I knew about this but didn´t think it could have a short circuit situation ( making click the IRA Relay).

Anyhow, I have ordered those 2 items ( Low Pressure Switch and Bosch Temperature flap motor) and hopefully they will be installed by the end of the week.

I will keep you posted....

Thanks a lot. Inputs I had from you guys was exceptional.

Cheers

[domas]

I would not agree regarding IRA relay.
If you have read my previous post and have opened your fusebox under the hood, you would find the relays in position 2 and 3 for middle and max speed of fan. Why another one?

Another thing is that you can swap relays around with their sockets, which is definitely a case for lower and upper rows, and is most likely the case for the middle row. What is the relay number in position one? It might have been swapped around. Did you even post the picture of our relay layout? Please do so unless I have overseen it.

[domas]

And I have now looked through your relay picture now and everything is exactly the same as in mine, except for 645 relay which is a 4 pin relay with resistor across the main terminals..

The other differences include that you do not have 276 x2 relays (both of them for seat heating as i have it in my car) and you do not have 295 relay which is A/C compressor clutch. I my suspect ion is that the relay socket from A/C clutch was moved to IRA relay position.

PULL the relay that is in position #1 with a/c on on full power, and see if compressor disengages. Really, just compare it to my car, not rs2, not urs4, not us spec 200 20v, you are best of comparing to what i have

[200t]

Hi Domas.
Thanks for the feedback.
I don´t know if the relays were changed in position, but the 645 acts like a 214 I believe.
And, for what I know, these cars have 3 relays, one for each radiator fan speed. 2 in the main relay panel under the hood, and the 1st speed in the interior relay panel.

About the 295, for the A/C clutch it is not there as I was waiting for the correcct one, as the car had an old, 4 pin relay, and for my car, it is a % pin, whihc is ( today) already in place.

About the seat heaters, I don´t have that option on this car so they are not there.

And coming back again at the IRA-RELAY, what you see as 645, we did try to pull it off while A/C was running and the fan would stop when taking it out, so we strongly believe it is THAT relay.

About the INTENSIVE wash, it is really the missing piece here.
In the very beginning, I thought that IRA-RELAY was for the intensive wash, but today, I still don´t know if I even have the INTENSIVE WASH.
According to ETKA and VIN number, it is suppose to be there in the very 1st position, but the fact is that maybe it was moved away ( really away because I don't find any other socket laying aorund).
So, about this, I do have HEadlights washers and the relay for that is in the Relay panel under the hood. However, I ALSO have a separate reservoir on the front left panel ( very near the relay panel under the hood in fact) that I believe iis for the Headlight washer liquid ( different bottles for windshield and headlights).....Do you have that?

Thanks

**Another culprit ( out of a considerate number): Do you have the BOSE Sound System?

[Nuvo]

Hi 200t,
Would it be possible to share the wiring diagram(s) from the Bentley manual for the Time Delay control circuit (position #3) when you have the time please?

[domas]

Hi Domas.
Thanks for the feedback.
I don´t know if the relays were changed in position, but the 645 acts like a 214 I believe.
And, for what I know, these cars have 3 relays, one for each radiator fan speed. 2 in the main relay panel under the hood, and the 1st speed in the interior relay panel.

About the 295, for the A/C clutch it is not there as I was waiting for the correcct one, as the car had an old, 4 pin relay, and for my car, it is a % pin, whihc is ( today) already in place.

About the seat heaters, I don´t have that option on this car so they are not there.

And coming back again at the IRA-RELAY, what you see as 645, we did try to pull it off while A/C was running and the fan would stop when taking it out, so we strongly believe it is THAT relay.

About the INTENSIVE wash, it is really the missing piece here.
In the very beginning, I thought that IRA-RELAY was for the intensive wash, but today, I still don´t know if I even have the INTENSIVE WASH.
According to ETKA and VIN number, it is suppose to be there in the very 1st position, but the fact is that maybe it was moved away ( really away because I don't find any other socket laying aorund).
So, about this, I do have HEadlights washers and the relay for that is in the Relay panel under the hood. However, I ALSO have a separate reservoir on the front left panel ( very near the relay panel under the hood in fact) that I believe iis for the Headlight washer liquid ( different bottles for windshield and headlights).....Do you have that?

Thanks

**Another culprit ( out of a considerate number): Do you have the BOSE Sound System?

Damn I can't find out how to multi quote messages!!
Anyway, here it goes:

Re 645: I do believe that 645 is as simple as 214 as well. Maybe amperage is different.

Re 3 relays: if you are referring to 324, than yes, but it is not only for fan, as I mentioned before. it starts auxilary electric coolant pump for afterrun, as well as it gives the signal to one of 214 for 2nd or 3rd fan speed, can't remember.
The slow first or 0 speed (a/c) is most likely triggered by the same a/c clutch relay. If that is the case, so yes there is a slow speed relay in the interior.

Re 295 etc: most likely you need a correct relay to trigger a/c clutch and slow speed of fan. I do not have diagrams with me as they are back in Lithuania. But you have and you can easily check. I can also check something online.

Re IRA relay: I am still unsure about this, we might need to check it in diagrams. But you are sure that you have a separate socket for a/c relay, and a socket for IRA relay? In my car I do not even have a socket for it. What year and month is your car? is it Europe spec or US spec? Mine is German spec an is October 1990.

Intensive wash: no idea really. It shouldn't even matter before we know what the hell IRA is used for.

Re Headlight washers: Mine uses the same tank as window washer fluid, but I am not sure if the system is original, because holes in the bumper are home made. It does not mean anything really as the car was crashed in y2000 and it got a new front in Germany, i found the papers for that. So it could be that the system is original but they had to make holes in the bumper.
My best guess that your headlight washer system is retrofitted, but so could be mine.

Re BOSE:
nix. No bose here. Only two loudspeakers in the back with amplifiers on them. I have never seen an EU spec 220v that had BOSE. It was quite common in us spec models though. And IIRC bose has a relay in aux panel for amplifier, at least I have seen so in some V8 diagrams, maybe generic 200 diagrams as well.

Questions: please confirm how many connectors in aux relay panel do you have? if you populate a/c relay with a respective relay, do you still have an empty spot for a possible ira relay?
Can you please take a picture of a sticker in the trunk with modification codes? I have mine somewhere in pc but it will take some time to find. And mine are numerical codes, not ones with numbers and letters. I can still decode most of the though.

[domas]

Aaand, here are my codes, everything matches:
079;139;142;340;352;366;383;398;409;416;432;476;57 3;597;615;668;995;998

79: leather trim
139: electrically heated front passenger seat with backrest
142: fire extinguisher
340: driver seat heating /w backrest
352: cruise control system
366: sun vizor iith illumuitaed mirror, driver side
383: front seat electrically adjustable
398: exterior mirror (flat), electrically adjustable and heated, driver side
409: sport seat, front
416: sports steering wheel and gearshift know in leather trim --- both were long gone when I got the car
432: ABS
476: spare wheel with tyre istead of space saving emergency spare wheel
573: air conditioner
597: 12V 63Ah battery
615: headlisht range control, electric
668: rear seat and backrest, heated
995: roller blind for rear window
998: exterior mirror (covex), electrically adjustable and heated.

and I can't see the option of washers nor in my list, neither in the decoding list in etka

Do you have a code called 059? heavy-duty windshield washer