Smoking ABY Avant

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  • ~Delta
    S2Forum Maniac
    • Apr 2005
    • 797

    #1

    Smoking ABY Avant

    I've got a customers '93 Avant, he thought the turbo was whistling badly, so he decided to bring it down for a replacement.

    Initial diagnosis, when the engine was revved, on the overrun (in neutral) there was a 'whistle', akin to an intake leak. The car has done 130,000 miles. I removed the turbo, and I've never seen anything like it. The turbine wheels were seized solid. So, while I doubnt the whistle on overrun wasn't related to the turbocharger, it was certainly dead. The induction pipe and the boot which connects it to the throttle body were absolutely dripping oil. My customer said it did smoke a little on occasion (a little?)

    I took it to my local turbo recon. company, whom I have used for many years, and have always found very helpful. They too tried to turn the comp. wheel by using a socket on the retaining nut, and shock, horror, the nut actually detatched from the shaft! I'm not sure how tight it was, but if it was easier to loosen it rather than turn the shaft, it must have been pretty hard for the exhaust gasses to move it.

    2 days later (yesterday morning), I collected a recon. unit, a spec I have used in the past with no problems. It's a K26 - 6411, with a slightly larger comp. wheel than the stock K24, and definitely a larger hot side. Fitted the unit, and fired the car up.

    1 minute on idle produced plumes of blue smoke, which I presumed was the residue in the induction system and probably the intercooler. I took it for a test run. It pulls very strongly, not as low down as the stock K24, but not as high up the rev range as an RS2 either. It pulled strongly and revved cleanly to 7,000 RPM without any flat spots.

    On returning, the smoke had dissappeared, running really clean. Left it stood for 10 minutes, restarted and lo and behold, that offending blue cloud was back again. It takes about half a mile of driving to clear, and it appears to be ok, even after mixed driving, which lasted fo 2 hours. When cold, the 'whistle' on overrun is evident, last about 5 minutes into the warm up phase, when blipping the throttle doesn't produce the noise.

    I have now fitted the same turbo to another ABY, and guess what? No smoke! While it was off the Avant, I checked the oil return pipe for any obstruction, and made sure the oil was at the right level. I have since carried out an oil change, but refitting the turbo still produces oily smoke. I'm not sure if it requires a long, hard run, possibly oil still in the cats? (they'll be knackered then) or in the intercooler?

    The owner says he keeps losing water, he can see drips where it's been parked, possible headgasket? I'd appreciate some feedback on this, before I literally put my fist through the screen.
    Never show a fool a half built house.
    Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

    Life is like a **** sandwich
    The more bread you have, the less **** you eat
  • dan_b
    S2Forum Possessed
    • Sep 2003
    • 3670
    • Home: United Kingdom Current: England

    #2
    I was going to suggest headgasket: also could there be a blocked/spit breather hose for the crankcase?
    What condition are the rads in?
    Ex S2 owner, now running around in an A4 Avant quattro...

    Comment

    • ~Delta
      S2Forum Maniac
      • Apr 2005
      • 797

      #3
      Both rads were replaced - main one 6 months ago, the aux. 6 weeks back. Will make sure breathers are not blocked and hoses not split / missing.
      Never show a fool a half built house.
      Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

      Life is like a **** sandwich
      The more bread you have, the less **** you eat

      Comment

      • CR500Dom
        S2Forum Addict
        • Oct 2004
        • 237

        #4
        If it mainly happens on Start up, I would suggest valve stem oil seals.

        The Exhaust valve stem seal will always sit in oil when at rest, when the seals go hard they dont anymore
        so oil runs down the stem of the exhaust valve creating loads of smoke on start up....

        Will be worse with blocked C-Case breathers.

        Common problem on CVH Ford engines
        HTH
        Dom

        Comment

        • Jon441cc
          S2Forum Fiend
          • Dec 2005
          • 2061
          • Country: United Kingdom

          #5
          Delta, check the metal pipe from the pcv valve to the cylinder head,mine was
          blocked up with a mix of oil+gunge and making the car smoke badly on start up.
          i cleaned the pipe through and replaced the firetrap now the car does not smoke one bit.

          good luck
          sigpic

          Comment

          • ~Delta
            S2Forum Maniac
            • Apr 2005
            • 797

            #6
            Thanks for all the input guys. I've checked the breathers, the part on the block was blocked, I've removed it and cleaned it completely, but it still smokes. The only thing I imagine it could be is valve stem seals?
            Never show a fool a half built house.
            Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

            Life is like a **** sandwich
            The more bread you have, the less **** you eat

            Comment

            • Jon441cc
              S2Forum Fiend
              • Dec 2005
              • 2061
              • Country: United Kingdom

              #7
              Originally posted by ~Delta
              Thanks for all the input guys. I've checked the breathers, the part on the block was blocked, I've removed it and cleaned it completely, but it still smokes. The only thing I imagine it could be is valve stem seals?
              does the car smoke on boost & gear changes?
              sigpic

              Comment

              • ~Delta
                S2Forum Maniac
                • Apr 2005
                • 797

                #8
                No, on boost or gear changes, the smoke drops off, after about half a mile, gone completely. I'm baffled. It's related to start up, when the cloud is quite dense, if left to warm up stationary, it will reduce till hardly visible. Blip the throttle and it becomes more visible.
                Never show a fool a half built house.
                Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

                Life is like a **** sandwich
                The more bread you have, the less **** you eat

                Comment

                • rotoryboy
                  S2Forum Possessed
                  • May 2004
                  • 3281
                  • Country: United Kingdom

                  #9
                  Originally posted by ~Delta
                  No, on boost or gear changes, the smoke drops off, after about half a mile, gone completely. I'm baffled. It's related to start up, when the cloud is quite dense, if left to warm up stationary, it will reduce till hardly visible. Blip the throttle and it becomes more visible.
                  I'd be interested in this as mine has done this for months. Charlie had the same trouble and his went with a catch tank fitment.
                  Mark

                  Race Clio RS197

                  S2 Coupe ABY (Green) - RIP
                  S2 Coupe ABY (Blue) - Sold

                  Comment

                  • charlie
                    S2Forum Addict
                    • Jan 2004
                    • 447

                    #10
                    That old chestnut. Their is a very simple simple. Just change

                    1) Stem seals and valve guides
                    2) Headgasket
                    3) Piston rings

                    Job done.
                    RS2 MTM

                    Comment

                    • ~Delta
                      S2Forum Maniac
                      • Apr 2005
                      • 797

                      #11
                      The following has just been completed:

                      1) New valve guides
                      2) New stem seals
                      3) New piston rings
                      4) New headgasket
                      5) Turbo stripped and rebuilt
                      6) New breather and flame trap
                      7) Cylinder bores checked and honed
                      8) Cylinder head crack tested and checked for true

                      Fired up the car tonight, after 1 minute of idling, the nasty blue cloud is back! After 35 minutes of idling, the cloud reduces, slightly visible around tailpipe, almost gone. Driving the smoke returns, clears completely after half a mile covered.

                      Returning home, switched off, restarted after 20 minutes, smoking all over again!! A member has suggested disconnecting the breather at the front on the rocker cover from the turbo intake, and blank off both disconnected ends.

                      Any suggestions guys? right now, I feel like jumping out of a window.

                      I'm on the 2nd floor.
                      Never show a fool a half built house.
                      Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

                      Life is like a **** sandwich
                      The more bread you have, the less **** you eat

                      Comment

                      • mcandmar
                        S2Forum Zealot
                        • Apr 2004
                        • 5118
                        • Country: Ireland

                        #12
                        Sienna i had a similar problem with our S4, lots and lots of white smoke on idle which would only go away after being driven hard for a few mins, then left to idle the smoke came back. We changed out the turbo and that cured it for us. ....i wonder if your recond turbo is leaking oil?

                        Could be valve guides too, i noticed on my 7A if i shut it down when really hot the next time i start it up it splutters and burns off some oil and runs find again, seems like its slowly leaking past the valve guides when very hot, and thats a rebuild head with new seals etc.

                        Strange you havent found the problem with that rebuild though, you seem to have covered all angles at this stage..
                        91CQ20v - Gone to a new home
                        93UR-S4 - The Magic Carpet
                        94S2Bus - The Emerald Express

                        Comment

                        • volcano rs
                          S2Forum Fiend
                          • Jun 2005
                          • 2265
                          • Country: United Kingdom

                          #13
                          i have same problem with my shorty after new
                          rings
                          turbo
                          head fully rebuilt
                          it smokes until its warm then it stops .let it cool then start again does same again. if you find out let me know .

                          Comment

                          • philS2
                            S2Forum Addict
                            • Nov 2004
                            • 356
                            • Country: United Kingdom

                            #14
                            Originally posted by ~Delta
                            The following has just been completed:

                            1) New valve guides
                            2) New stem seals
                            3) New piston rings
                            4) New headgasket
                            5) Turbo stripped and rebuilt
                            6) New breather and flame trap
                            7) Cylinder bores checked and honed
                            8) Cylinder head crack tested and checked for true

                            Fired up the car tonight, after 1 minute of idling, the nasty blue cloud is back! After 35 minutes of idling, the cloud reduces, slightly visible around tailpipe, almost gone. Driving the smoke returns, clears completely after half a mile covered.

                            Returning home, switched off, restarted after 20 minutes, smoking all over again!! A member has suggested disconnecting the breather at the front on the rocker cover from the turbo intake, and blank off both disconnected ends.

                            Any suggestions guys? right now, I feel like jumping out of a window.

                            I'm on the 2nd floor.
                            i presume it's using a lot of oil then.theres only so many ways the oil can get into the cylinder,as you'll know.i'd try the breathers,but put them in a bottle or something of the sort to see what they catch.

                            Comment

                            • ~Delta
                              S2Forum Maniac
                              • Apr 2005
                              • 797

                              #15
                              Today, I disconnected the breather from between the front of the rocker cover and the turbo intake boot, smoke still apparent. I did notice fresh oil dripping from the fromt of the intake pipe (the metal one that connects the intercooler to the throttle body) when I disconnected the rubber elbow. Is it possible for the intercooler to be full of oil from a previous problem?
                              Never show a fool a half built house.
                              Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

                              Life is like a **** sandwich
                              The more bread you have, the less **** you eat

                              Comment

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