Individual COP on 7A Engine

[monkslayer]

hey guys . I have an Audi 7A Engine which has since been noted to 83mm and installed a 92.8 crank to make it a 2.5L 5 cyl 20v. I decided to go distributorless and install the 60-2 trigger wheel setup and CPS on the transmission end(crankshaft seal with trigger wheel trick), use the dizzy as a camshaft sensor and also install the Adaptronic e420d ECU . Problem is that I can not seem to get a cranking rpm and as such no ignition pulse . Could anyone give me an idea where my setup is going wrong ?i have attached my current trigger settings which give no output .

thank you in advance e
MONK

[Bowie69]

Try switching the trigger wheel sensor polarity, they don't like it when back to front and really easy to get wrong.

[monkslayer]

Thank you but no such luck. It seems that some people say that a 60-2 wheel doesn't work well with a 5 cylinder. Any truth to this?

[Bowie69]

Can't see what difference that would make at all, you are using the dizzy for the timing in conjunction, so you could use anything on crank.

[monkslayer]

I thought as much but not having any luck. Pulling at hairs with the adaptronic ECU on this. If my sensor is at tooth 14 Any idea what the trigger angle to be populated on the table would be? Also, for those who have used the transmission end 60-2 trigger wheel solution, can you tell me whether the sensor Is digital or reluctor?

[Error404]

60-2 works perfectly, it's universal. The VAG crank rear seal 60-2 sensor is a hall effect i.e. digital sensor.
I've never used Adaptronic and I can't find any documentation on it on their site for your ECU... which software are you using? Is the documentation bundled with the software?
The screen grab really makes no sense without understanding their logic or terminology.

[monkslayer]

I’m using their Wari software or Eugene . Usually you can use either or . The Eugene software is for their newer modular ECUs. Posted a link below to understand the logic behind their ECU and software .

in regard to the rear seal 60-2 sensor wiring, could you expound how to proceed . Currently Pin 1- ECU trigger , Pin 2 - Sensor ground , pin 3 - joined to pin 2 which is Sensor ground ; is my sensor wiring correct ?(may be a bit obvious but I’d would just like to verify:-) )

[Error404]

On a hall sensor you have voltage supply, (normally 5v or 12v) ground and signal output - you're missing the voltage supply.

For the rear seal 60-2 the pin-out is as follows:

Pin 1 - 5v Supply
Pin 2 - Signal Output
Pin 3 - Ground

[Error404]

Once you've corrected that use a scope to verify the ECU is seeing the trigger pulse. Then move onto the trigger and cam(reset) angle and get those correct.
If you set the 60-2 wheel using the standard procedure, from memory the first tooth angle should be 80 deg BTDC.



HTH
Alex


Also try setting your cam sensor to CAM 720 sync

[monkslayer]

Thanks Alex . I will try that. I would imagine then I will need to use only one reset , that is on the 2 missing tooth ? Wouldn’t setting cam 720 create 2 resets (inclusive of the mission tooth?

[Error404]

Well this is where I don't really see the sense/logic in their terminology - the ECU needs to know the crank angle and also the phase, i.e. compression or ignition phase in order to time the injection/ignition events.
They are using the term "reset" to describe the missing tooth (teeth) on the crank trigger, and also the phase sync signal from the cam. You don't need the ECU to reset the count when it sees the sync pulse, only to recognise which phase it is in. For example, every time the ECU sees the first tooth (after the missing teeth) on the crank, it knows it is at say 80deg BTDC, but it doesn't know the phase. It needs the cam sync signal to occur every 720deg. Without the sync signal, the ECU would fire the coil and more significantly the injector once every crank revolution.

Assuming the first tooth is at 80deg BTDC (you need to verify this), then for the first 144deg period (Cyl 1 phase 1), I guess the "angles of timing marks" should be counting back from 80 in 6 degree increments, for a total 24 teeth with -1 being the value of the last pulse in the period.

80, 74, 68, 62, 56, 50, 44, 38, 32, 26, 20, 14, 8, 2, 354, 348, 342, 336, 330, 324, 318, 312, 306, -1

[monkslayer]

That makes more sense now . I guess your explaination is more logical .The sensor is currently at tooth 14, but can fine tune to determine the angle of the first tooth after the missing . I’ll use the reset on the two missing teeth and leave the trigger 2 to just cam 720 for Sync without any reset. In addition , posted a pic of my setup for a more visualistic idea of my conundrum !:-)

[monkslayer]

Hey Alex/all,

no luck at all with the settings at all. From what i understand , the timing table should be populated with figures wrapped around the 144 degree period for the 5 cylinder therefore your table wouldn't work.I rewired my crankshaft sensor as advised and finally i have a trigger from the crankshaft sensor!!!(Hurrah):-)... I now only need to find the right settings so that it can i can finally fire up the car. Having read about many others having setup the 60-2 trigger wheel on their setups, i really wish i could get more assistance/tips from the forum.

[Error404]

Good stuff - small progress but progress none the less!
I don't think I've ever seen anyone running the Adaptronic on the 5 cyl, so assistance / tips will be in short supply since it is an ECU/configuration issue.
I had based the angle figures around 144deg for cylinder 1, counting back from the assumed first tooth angle. Not sure how else to interpret their settings terminology

As you now have a crank trigger signal, next step is to verified the first tooth angle / trigger offset.
Disable the injectors and lock the ignition timing to 0deg, then use a timing light to verify the timing offset is correct, using the factory 0 mark on the flyhweel or make a new (accurate) mark on the damper/pulley.

HTH

[monkslayer]

Yes it seems the adaptronics setup is a rare one and as such besides the customer support, there is little else out there. Their terminlogies are confusing for sure and their support told me that the 60-2 (or any missing tooth )will not work well with the 5 cylinder since the missing tooth will be at different BTDC angles for the first and second half of the engine cycle. They advised a 60 tooth trigger instead.In any case,i have to verify the first tooth angle for the first tooth angle then proceed from there . baby steps...