Been doing some more digging into Total seal rings after Mark H's success with them.
But I keep getting told that for a turbo app you should use the 2nd ring and not the top ring.
Came across this website today http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/tur...eal-rings.html
I have been using the total seal rings in my series III supercharger motor(16,000 miles), with no problem. i have alway use they rings in every single application from imports to american.
a gapless top ring is the worst ring set-up for turbo application. you may think the rings are bad. but you made a bad selection with the gapless top rings. it is best to use a gapless second ring in turbo application. the gapless second ring increase cranking compression. I notice with all my total seal gaplessre-build the engine will start much quicker when COLD or warm.
a gapless top ring will loose more compress air on the compression stroke when compare to the gapless second rings. a standard top ring will see minimum blow-by, but the second gapless rings will seal the cylinder 99.99 percent...
Believe me TOTAL SEAL pistion rings are the BEST. and i am not just saying this because i own the ring. you can ask any professional engine build (not a race car driver)
But I keep getting told that for a turbo app you should use the 2nd ring and not the top ring.
Came across this website today http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/tur...eal-rings.html
I have been using the total seal rings in my series III supercharger motor(16,000 miles), with no problem. i have alway use they rings in every single application from imports to american.
a gapless top ring is the worst ring set-up for turbo application. you may think the rings are bad. but you made a bad selection with the gapless top rings. it is best to use a gapless second ring in turbo application. the gapless second ring increase cranking compression. I notice with all my total seal gaplessre-build the engine will start much quicker when COLD or warm.
a gapless top ring will loose more compress air on the compression stroke when compare to the gapless second rings. a standard top ring will see minimum blow-by, but the second gapless rings will seal the cylinder 99.99 percent...
Believe me TOTAL SEAL pistion rings are the BEST. and i am not just saying this because i own the ring. you can ask any professional engine build (not a race car driver)
Some may feel that my comments with regard to the Total Seal issue can be considered hijacking. My post here is not geared for all of you, just those who are having problems with rings. I am still in the Cam business. I was with UltraDyne for 13 years. I got into the Engine Blueprinting business because so many cam customers wanted me to work their motors too.
There is one thing that no one mentions here and that very few in the engine business understand but is extreemly critical. That is Honing. Very few(including Engine Builders) own a Profilometer or even know what a profilometer is. Most hone blocks the same way. Most who have done it for 30 years also say they still do it the same today. Rings have changed. Materials and process has changed. Tolerances of rings and pistons have also come a very long way even in the last 10 years. What is interesting to see is the surface finishes the so called trick hone produces. Funny thing is that I can re finish a Comp Eliminator motor with less than 30 passes on it because it is guzzling oil, but after I finish it, it makes 35 more HP on average, and it runs for 150 passes. In terms of Ra's and Rz's, it is way off from what Total Seal and the other Ring people suggest. Usually I see Ra numbers of 6 instead of 18, and I see Rz numbers like 80-100 instead of 170 or better. It is way too shallow and way too slick. THey wonder why it smokes like a Grill when they go to the Dyno with it! Slick hones don't make power and they don't last. Sure they spin easier on the bench with a torque wrench. They also coke the cylinder with oil because they have a hard time controlling oil (they smoke.) 400 Grit stones are great for a final finish using very light pressure and only a couple of strokes because it will help the surface finish without killing the Rz's (the depth.) To have any luck with a Total Seal ring whatsoever, you have to have clean honing oil, and you need to hone with a soft bonded 220 grit stone Like an EHU 518 at high pressure (60AMPS for you CK10 users). Then you finish with a soft bonded 280 grit stone like a JUH623 at still high pressure. If you must use a 400 grit afterwards (818 or 820), just kiss it with very light pressure for 3 strokes. THen clean with ATF then Lacquer thinner. Oil it with a reall light oil or Quick Seat. If you don't hone it like this, I assure you there will be problems just like others have reported even in this thread! A hone has to be deep to hold oil. A hone is a bearing area. If you hone light and with smooth stones, you won't have any bearing area and won't have oil retention, and the ring will wear FAST though it will be slow to seat. ALso, the harder the block material is, the softer the stone has to be for it to cut. This is why a stone used for honing a production block won't even scratch a Hard Sleeve or an aftermarket race block. You will find when you hone the way I have suggested, your motor will seal up instantly, you will have great oil control even with light oil (I hate 20W50 and so does GM) and low tension rings without vacuume pumps, you will make more power, and you will have a much longer running set of rings. Just look at Detroit. NONE of their cylinder finishes are smooth. They are very aggressive! Your 10,000 mile motor that was re honed and now having 10,000 miles on it, having almost no visible cross hatch, is almost surely a result of a very light cutting pressure with a fine stone.
The other thing you can't do if you want success is install the ring by hand. I.E. twisting it onto the piston. You have to expand it, or you will turn it into a lock washer, it will spin in the bore and it will also not be sealed in all areas because it is twisted. JUst disassemble the rings and inspect the wear pattern. You will see.
Have you checked the radial clearance between the ring and the ring land with a feeler guage? It should be no more than .002.
There is one thing that no one mentions here and that very few in the engine business understand but is extreemly critical. That is Honing. Very few(including Engine Builders) own a Profilometer or even know what a profilometer is. Most hone blocks the same way. Most who have done it for 30 years also say they still do it the same today. Rings have changed. Materials and process has changed. Tolerances of rings and pistons have also come a very long way even in the last 10 years. What is interesting to see is the surface finishes the so called trick hone produces. Funny thing is that I can re finish a Comp Eliminator motor with less than 30 passes on it because it is guzzling oil, but after I finish it, it makes 35 more HP on average, and it runs for 150 passes. In terms of Ra's and Rz's, it is way off from what Total Seal and the other Ring people suggest. Usually I see Ra numbers of 6 instead of 18, and I see Rz numbers like 80-100 instead of 170 or better. It is way too shallow and way too slick. THey wonder why it smokes like a Grill when they go to the Dyno with it! Slick hones don't make power and they don't last. Sure they spin easier on the bench with a torque wrench. They also coke the cylinder with oil because they have a hard time controlling oil (they smoke.) 400 Grit stones are great for a final finish using very light pressure and only a couple of strokes because it will help the surface finish without killing the Rz's (the depth.) To have any luck with a Total Seal ring whatsoever, you have to have clean honing oil, and you need to hone with a soft bonded 220 grit stone Like an EHU 518 at high pressure (60AMPS for you CK10 users). Then you finish with a soft bonded 280 grit stone like a JUH623 at still high pressure. If you must use a 400 grit afterwards (818 or 820), just kiss it with very light pressure for 3 strokes. THen clean with ATF then Lacquer thinner. Oil it with a reall light oil or Quick Seat. If you don't hone it like this, I assure you there will be problems just like others have reported even in this thread! A hone has to be deep to hold oil. A hone is a bearing area. If you hone light and with smooth stones, you won't have any bearing area and won't have oil retention, and the ring will wear FAST though it will be slow to seat. ALso, the harder the block material is, the softer the stone has to be for it to cut. This is why a stone used for honing a production block won't even scratch a Hard Sleeve or an aftermarket race block. You will find when you hone the way I have suggested, your motor will seal up instantly, you will have great oil control even with light oil (I hate 20W50 and so does GM) and low tension rings without vacuume pumps, you will make more power, and you will have a much longer running set of rings. Just look at Detroit. NONE of their cylinder finishes are smooth. They are very aggressive! Your 10,000 mile motor that was re honed and now having 10,000 miles on it, having almost no visible cross hatch, is almost surely a result of a very light cutting pressure with a fine stone.
The other thing you can't do if you want success is install the ring by hand. I.E. twisting it onto the piston. You have to expand it, or you will turn it into a lock washer, it will spin in the bore and it will also not be sealed in all areas because it is twisted. JUst disassemble the rings and inspect the wear pattern. You will see.
Have you checked the radial clearance between the ring and the ring land with a feeler guage? It should be no more than .002.
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