Newbie looking to buy a 400bhp S2 need help ?

[RobEvo5]

Hello all, and would appreciate any help you can give a newbie. I have had various modified cars in the past, and very taken with a S2 that is claiming big power but with little accurate detail to substantiate it. The deal is as good as done subject to the car being as stated.

It would appear I have overlooked the potential of these cars, but want to be sure I am not buying something that it isn't. i.e just a S2 with perhaps a chip and nothing more.

I tried speed reading various threads and posts to help me in my cause, but dont seem to be helping me.

Basically its a 1991 S2 thats claimed to have had a modified 911 turbo, Cam, uprated plugs, with possibly uprated twin intercoolers, clutch and remapped. Very little other info at this stage.

Please forgive my ignorance as I really am in the dark with these cars, but what does it take to get a S2 to 400bhp and indeed is it possible and relatively reliable on a stock engine. And is there anything visual I can be looking for to confirm the car has been modified at said.

Apart from the obvious induction kit anything evident from this pic ?


Its taken much effort and expense to get cars I have had in the past to near 400bhp so at the moment can't see it with the S2 that I am about to buy.

Looking for a bit of a buyers guide really and what I should be looking for but particularily to confirm the mods.

At 400bhp it should be bonkers quick, breaking traction in 2nd and 3rd. So will trust my instincts to a degree, but would appreciate any pointers.

Many thanks.
Rob

[Sonic]

Hi Rob,

Welcome to the forum

The car is indeed an early S2 3B, but not to the spec stated!

A stock s2 3b is 220bhp. To get it to 400bhp youve got a lot of work! (turbo, EM, **** loads of engine work, remap, exhaust etc etc).

The stock engine will not hold to 400bhp.

If you do decide to go down the s2 route (which i would seriously recommend ) you will want to look in the projects section, where you will find some fantastic examples of 400bhp+ S2's, and see the amount of work that had gone into them!

Cheers,

Andy

[S2central.net]

There is a buyers guide (and lots of other info) at my site - http://s2central.net

If the guy is claiming 400bhp he MUST have a dyno plot at least.

I smell a rat unless he is able to explain what changes have been made and he should have receipts at least for the big ticket items.

Ask who remapped it - this is NOT easy on a 3B engine.

You can bolt on the right bits for 400bhp and plenty more power if you wish - many folk on here have done it... But the car you are looking at sounds very very vague to me.

Induction kits are usually rubbish due to heatsoak.
Twin intercoolers - load of balls - one big one will suffice.
See if you can read any part number or label on the alleged 911 Turbo - some of those might be suitable on the S2 but its just not all bolt on in that department.

Also - note the colour of the hoods on the fuel injectors - they should be green at those power levels with Bosch equipment.

Ask exactly what camshafts were fitted.

Get the part number of the fuel pressure regulator.

Was the fuel pump uprated ?

Was the head gasket changed for a steel item ?

Were any engine internals changed for what should be lairy mid-range torque levels with a turbo capable of 400bhp.

And of course - observe any boost readings whilst driving. If it aint got a boost guage then fit a temporary one with a T-piece down at the ECU - passenger side footwell.

I smell a rat here - thankfully you have some experience so you should recognise 400bhp in your butt when its there. Of course the S2 is a good bit heavier than your average go faster Jap machine so the butt dyno might need some adjustment.

If in doubt - walk away.

Paul

[s2driveruk]

its on a stock S2 EM looking at the angle of the w/gate cap so definately not pushing 400bhp. If there is a twin pass I/C then the routing is strangely standard, no sign of any reverse IM etc.

I'd not even worry yourself in investigating further, i can smell it from here and it don't smell good

[Ross]

You'd need to be pushing 1.8-2.0bar to get that kinda power, stock MAF hose there and I wouldn't recommend it...

Having had a 3B built to 428 BHP myself, I can say fairly that it is possible to do this on an engine that *looks* stock but there were some obvious tell-tale signs.

-Intercooler, must be uprated. RS2 item looks stock but is longer, you can tell because there has to be some modification to the X-member to fit it.

-Paper headgasket must have been replaced with a steel item.

-huge garrett dual-BB turbo

-Uprated EM to RS2 item (again, looks stock but the runners merge at the same point, this is a tell-tale sign as the stock 3B cyl #1 and #5 merge in above the others, search for pics)

-Exhuast needs to be 2.75" at least, look under the car for a custom SS system

-Hoses, really need SAMCO or equivalent at that level.

-Boost will be, rather than 0.8bar stock, about 2.0bar...

-Big injectors (stock good to about 330 i think) and ideally an uprated fuel pump

-Big end shells are a weakpoint in the 3B engine and need to be replaced. So look for evidence/receipts of a bottom-end rebuild.

-As mentioned, get a dyno plot or receipt of tuning as there's very few people that can get that power out of a 3B using stock motronic ECU

Good luck, hope the guy isn't trying to ramp up the asking price either due to these supposed 'mods'. My car struggled to break traction in 2nd/3rd in a striaght line even with that power btw, the S2 has loads of grip and with 400+ is capable of frightening 0-60 times even in heavy rain (tyre dependant of course).

Cheers
Ross

Cheers
Ross

[Matt_D]

Ahh the one off ebay

As the chaps said theres very little chance of that car having 400bhp

It might have a RS2 turbo, Porsche did take a S2 and designed/added several bits to it to make a RS2, perhaps thats where they are getting the 'porsche turbo' idea from

Ask all the questions that Paul has posted above but also ask what con-rods have they fitted ?
A RS2 turbo or other uprated turbo can bend standard rods so stronger ones are fitted to cope with the power/torque increase which if it has anywhere near 400bhp it will need

[RobEvo5]

Thanks all so far. I am close enough I have got to have a look for curiosity, and the car is brought by me on the provisio its whats being claimed. But with you guys and something is not right, but might be an overlooked opportunity (doubt it).

S2 EM = S2 Engine Management ?.

I currently think its nothing more than possibly a stock early S2 with perhaps an off the peg chip.

With this power I would expect larger injectors, different manifold or exhaust, Aftermarket ECU live mapped to keep fueling and AFR's in check, Maybe camshatfs, fuel pump and regulator, a uprated clutch to hold the power.

What colour tops are standard injectors ?.
If it has them I assume 2 intercoolers is not standard ? I think he may have the radiator confussed with a second intercooler or possibly he thinks an oil cooler is an intercooler.

From pics of I have seen on a couple of project threads (Ross 400), a common mod seem to be a RS2 manifold which its still a cast manifold but distinctly seperate chambers for each cylinder. ??

No boost gauge and just sold a spare one I had else would have tried that.

I assume a stock exhaust and CATS won't flow 400bhp or anything close to ?

[RobEvo5]

Thanks ROSS you posted just as I did.

Any yep the EBAY one. Unfortunately I no nothing about S2,s but know a thing or 2 about what is takes to get a circa 200-250bhp car to 400bhp. But unfortuantely for me its all a bit alien to me under the bonnet of a S2 and can't tell whats stock and whats not. So relying on you guys very much here so thanks again.

A have gone away from scoobs now as getting a little older, but did mod one to 380bhp/380ft/lb of torque on a 2.5ltr bottom end with supporting mods, and would easily break traction in 2nd in the dry, and start to scrabble in 3rd until I broke the g/box due to the torque and then had to have a built PPG box to hold the torque but thats another expensive story. Good sounds like the traction and weight distrubition is much better on a S2.

[robo]

[QUOTE

S2 EM = S2 Engine Management ?.

QUOTE]

S2 EM = S2 Exhaust Manifold

[S2central.net]

Thanks all so far. I am close enough I have got to have a look for curiosity, and the car is brought by me on the provisio its whats being claimed. But with you guys and something is not right, but might be an overlooked opportunity (doubt it).

S2 EM = S2 Engine Management ?.

I currently think its nothing more than possibly a stock early S2 with perhaps an off the peg chip.

With this power I would expect larger injectors, different manifold or exhaust, Aftermarket ECU live mapped to keep fueling and AFR's in check, Maybe camshatfs, fuel pump and regulator, a uprated clutch to hold the power.

What colour tops are standard injectors ?.
If it has them I assume 2 intercoolers is not standard ? I think he may have the radiator confussed with a second intercooler or possibly he thinks an oil cooler is an intercooler.

From pics of I have seen on a couple of project threads (Ross 400), a common mod seem to be a RS2 manifold which its still a cast manifold but distinctly seperate chambers for each cylinder. ??

No boost gauge and just sold a spare one I had else would have tried that.

I assume a stock exhaust and CATS won't flow 400bhp or anything close to ?

These babies don't need aftermarket ECUs for big horsepower improvements - just an expert who knows how to do the job properly.

STock injectors are just black all over, but will not have enough puff for 400bhp.
Likewise the stock fuel pressure regulator would be changed to a better item for increased performance.

At a minimum the RS2 manifold should be fitted for these power levels. It is just a better shape than S2 item with less restrictions to gas flow.

CATs are normally removed on the 3B engined cars now - still MOT legal due to age.

An S2 will have two radiators, one oil cooler and one intercooler plus an optional radiator looking thing for aircon where equipped.

Surpised you haven't just walked away already

Paul

[RobEvo5]

Doh!

[RobEvo5]

Got to have a look as close enough. I have briefly spoke with the guy and somethings do potentially stack up, but largely it smells. Seriously lacking in receipts but does have a few so can hopefully piece something together with the info provided and with a head on my shoulders.

[s2driveruk]

knowing an S2 owner, there would be no way to have achieved a 400bhp upgrade and a) not have a gleaming (or at very least clean) engine bay given that it would have been taken to pieces and rebuilt and b) a serious stack of recepits.

My money is on your thought Rob.....he thinks the aux radiator is infact a 2nd intercooler

Another little telltale thing is the headlight trims....I would suggest this is a later 3b as they screw under EACH headlight. Early 3b's had a solid strip from memory unless he's upgraded the lights which is possible. If its after 1st Aug 1992, more than likely it will have cats and you'll struggle to pass the BET (basic Emissions Test) without them. however if like Ross suggested there is a s/s exhaust underneath then there might be just a single, high flow 100-200 cell cat which would allow good flow and hit the emissions for a cat equipped car.
Cheers
David

[4WheelDrifter]

The headlights don't look like an upgrade to me, more like a replacement. It would be interesting know the chassis number on this one.

Link to auction.

[CHEN]

I cant for the life of me imagine that that is running 400bhp. It looks far too standard to me. A lack of reciepts seems dodgy reaching 400bhp on these cars ain't cheap and everyone I know who has done it likes to keep the proof of it. Plus the intake as Ross said is a standard hose which means it cant have a larger turbo unless that hose has been cut back dodgily.