cam follower or lifter ?!?

[timucin]

i have changed to mechanical camshafts, what follower i have to use?
any part number?
which 5 cylinder 20 V had mechanic cam from factory?

thnx for help
i totally forgot this stuff until today,

[timucin]

ttt

[timucin]

[S2central.net]

They say that talking to yourself is the first sign of madness !

[timucin]

LOL,
i found this picture from a thread but i still need the part number for mechanical followers,can you help?
thnx,

[Mark Halligan]

i have changed to mechanical camshafts, what follower i have to use?
any part number?
which 5 cylinder 20 V had mechanic cam from factory?

thnx for help
i totally forgot this stuff until today,

Timucin,

the only 20 valver that I know of from the factory with mechanical followers was the KW engine sport quattro.

Surely the people that made your cams do the followers and shims for them too?

Heres a pic of the KW valve gear.

Mark.

[Mark Halligan]

Uh, I dont seem to be able to post any more pics, I keep getting a message telling me I have exceeded my quota of attachments

Anyway here a link to the ETKA page.

Mark.

[Pisobiker]

I took a look around and found some interesting infos that might be verifyed by our "parts" experts.

1) It seems hydraulic lifters of all Audi-VW engines are the same;
2) It seems mechanical lifters of all Audi-VW engines are the same;
3) Differences between hydraulic and mechanical lifters is the latter of course is less thick and has a dish on top to accomodate the calibration disks.
4) Difference in valve stem lenght between hydraulic and mechanical lifters is 10mm longer for the mechanical ones.

So, if all this is correct, my conclusions are:

A) Get 20 Audi-VW Mechanical lifters;
B) Have a 10mm disk fitted under the lifter where it pushes valve stem;
C) Use the std Audi-VW calibration disks to get the correct lifter-to-cam clearance (normally around 0.2mm for the intake and0.4mm for the exhaust)

Alternatively for B) might be possible to find extra thick calibration disks, but I'm not sure about this. Weight of this setup might also be significantly higher than the other option.
Another option for B) could be having 10mm longer custom fabricated high perf. valves......

I've never done such a conversion and I'm not planning to do any on my engine, but this is the only thing I could think of at the moment.


Hope this helps


Marco

[s2avant]

I took a look around and found some interesting infos that might be verifyed by our "parts" experts.

1) It seems hydraulic lifters of all Audi-VW engines are the same;
2) It seems mechanical lifters of all Audi-VW engines are the same;
3) Differences between hydraulic and mechanical lifters is the latter of course is less thick and has a dish on top to accomodate the calibration disks.
4) Difference in valve stem lenght between hydraulic and mechanical lifters is 10mm longer for the mechanical ones.
Marco

After a quick look over ETKA I would say that:

1) Almost all Hydraulic lifters are the same, part number: 034 109 309 AD. This is true for almost everything built up until the mid/late nineties. Newer stuff like Golf IV, Passat, A3, A4 etc have a wide selection of different lifters.

2) Almost all (if not all) Mechanical lifters are the same, part number: 056 109 311 A (which I'm sure supercedes but the latest version of ETKA doesn't say what to)

3) True

4) Not one hundred percent sure as it would require a lot more investigation

It certainly seems to me that Marco's plan for fitting the mechanical lifters would work albeit with a significant wieght increase. (I am getting out of my depth when it comes to cam/lifter clearances so will stop here)

Measuring the difference between the hydraulic and mechanical lifter would provide the correct plate height.

[Lee]

Fitting a 10mm thick spacer defeats the objective of going to a mechanical cam. Ti valves which are longer would allow you to take advantage of the high revving potential of the mechaical setup due to the reduced mass. Hydraulics are crap at high revs and lighter-than-stock mechanical lifters have significant advantages too. If you are going to the effort and expense of decent rods, pistons and lairy cams, why compromise with the other components in the head itself??? Seems strange to me!

So Ben, Are you suggesting that the mechaical lifters from a pre 1985 1.8 Golf would be compatible with the S2. My DX engined Scirocco is one of the first hydraulic heads, right? It's a first step but low mass valvetrain must be the only way to go IMHO if you want something special and a bit more reliable!

[s2avant]

So Ben, Are you suggesting that the mechaical lifters from a pre 1985 1.8 Golf would be compatible with the S2. My DX engined Scirocco is one of the first hydraulic heads, right? It's a first step but low mass valvetrain must be the only way to go IMHO if you want something special and a bit more reliable!

Lee, woah there big guy I can't say 100% that the pre 85 lifters will be compatible with the ABY head. Dimensionally there shouldn't be an issue but as I said I'm most definately not an expert on cams.

Don't bite my head of for this suggestion but what can we find out from the Sport Quattro (KW) setup? I assume the solid lifters were used for the big power this engine could develop.

As for your sky rocket as long it's 'G' chassis (1986 model year) onwards then it will be hydraulic lifters. Earlier ones had solid lifters.

Ben

[Lee]

Its a 1985 C plate and has hydraulic lifters...absolutely rubbish on those early cars and mechanicals lasted longer before adjustments than them (at the time) new fangled hydraulic jobbies.

It would be interesting to see what price the KW components were.

I'd personally take advantage of 20 years development in materials processing and go for titanium. In my industry small stainless steel parts now cost the same as Titanium ones because the raw material has come down in price and it spends the same amount of time on the lathes and mills in manufacture/fabrication. Titanium is now a lot more accessable and much less 'exotic'. We use quite a bit of Ti and are even looking into some pretty exotic ceramics for some applications too. Just because we work in the space industry doesn't mean that we have unlimited budgets: we have to be smarter with out expenditure to remain competitive on the marketplace and Titanium is certainly much more cost effective that it was even just 5 years ago.

Lee

[s2avant]

Its a 1985 C plate and has hydraulic lifters...absolutely rubbish on those early cars and mechanicals lasted longer before adjustments than them (at the time) new fangled hydraulic jobbies.

It would be interesting to see what price the KW components were.

It'll be a 1986 model year then.

As for the KW bits I'll have to wait till I'm back at work for prices on the lifters and valves (no pirces on ETKA for those bits). The cams are around £6-800 each.

Am I correct in assuming that the setup is the same as an S2 albeit with solid lifters? I would imagine getting titanium versions made shouldn't be too hard (if we had some KW bits to copy - which could possibly be arranged )

If someone has the specs then they could be compared. I can understand that a titanium solid lifter valve train would be both lighter and more reliable.

As a side note Arrow Precision down the road from where I live do race bred cam followers for golfs etc

http://www.arrowprecision.co.uk/cam_follow.html

Ben

[Lee]

Titanium is alsmost half the density of steel, half the stiffness but incredibly strong, hard and inert.

So this means that you can either run softer spring rates on the valves to reduce losses, or higher revs without needing silly springs that would overly stress the valvegear and head. They are considerably better than conventional valves in that hot environment. More reliable too.

Places like Del West have been making Ti valvegear for motorsport for many years. But increasingly there are more competitors arriving on the market. Ti valve springs are readily available now too as well as the collets, seats etc. I am sure one of those companies must have done a full complement for a Golf 16V mechanical head in the past for motorsport.......

[Mark Halligan]

I am sure one of those companies must have done a full complement for a Golf 16V mechanical head in the past for motorsport.......

Lee,

how much more expensive do you think these components would be compared to steel, I'd like to do the same as you and go down this route maybe in the future?

Mark.