Cunning plan to plot the MAF curve

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  • S2central.net
    Retired OG Mod
    • Jul 2003
    • 16590
    • Country: Northern Ireland

    #1

    Cunning plan to plot the MAF curve

    I have come up with a cunning plan to plot the output curve of the S2 / RS2 MAF...

    Why - cos it is completely undocumented in the public domain. I have politely asked a number or Bosch agents for datasheets but even they don't have them to divulge. Quite why Bosch is so protective about 20yr old technology I dunno.

    ANyway - here is the plan... Fortunately there is a range of Bosch hot FILM based MAFs which do have documented data in terms of an output voltage for given mass of air intake (grams per second for example).

    The plan is to buy such a hotfilm MAF and bolt it up in front of the (R)S2 MAF and hook up both MAF outputs into an ADC. Then simply take the car for a wee drive and I'll be able to plot the RS2 MAF characteristic by correlation against the hot film reference MAF.

    This is the only viable way forward as I haven't been able to locate anyone with a flowbench capable of such throughput - then I figured I can use my car as a flowbench !

    So onto the question of ADCs then - anybody got any experience of something like this -



    Its a UK firm who make an award warning PC based oscilloscope for lots of money - they look clued in and their ADC seems to have the right capability for my needs. 20kHz is plenty fast enough sample rate and it offers lots more channels for growth into other test scenarios.

    Once I have this data we will then have some means of being able to pinpoint MAFs which are in/out of spec. I'm using a fresh RS2 MAF here, but will happily test as many MAFs I can get hold of for more diligence.

    I'll have to cough up for one of these Bosch hotfilm jobbies - there is at least one with 80mm form factor - all I need is some ugly tubing to link them both together - and get the airbox out of the way. ECU will run of normal MAF for driving of course.

    The eventual upside of this is being able to unlock the MAF scaling secrets in the ECU so that we use bigger / better MAFs than the stock item. That has three main benefits :

    1. Better dynamic range as the factory one maxes out quite early. Its over 2V at idle already - duhhh

    2. Less restrictive intakes on big upgraded engine with a means of putting RS2 MAF internals into a bigger tube for example.

    3. More reliability with the possibility of migrating from precarious hotwire to more robust hotfilm technology... negating the need for hotside MAF locations and/or going to aftermarket ECU

    I think the MAF scaling stuff will hurt my head for a long time - that is the eventual goal, but for a little spend there should be some easy wins in the short term.

    Any other suggestion on good ADC with USB connection under £200 ?

    Ta,

    Paul
    Paul Nugent
    Webmaster http://S2central.net
    Administrator http://S2forum.com

    1994 S2 Coupe ABY - aka Project Lazarus
    2001 A6 allroad 2.5TDi - family tank
    2003 S4 Avant 4.2 V8 - daily burble

    Purveyor of HomeFries and Exclusive agent for Samco hose kits (S2/RS2)

    There are only 10 kinds of people that understand binary - those that do, and those that don't
  • Rusty
    Super Moderator
    • Jun 2004
    • 18953
    • Country: United Kingdom

    #2
    Hasn't URS4 boy looked into MAFs before? Might be worth speaking to him before you start as he might have some useful data.
    Cheers'en, AndyC
    1994 ABY Coupe - Projekt Alpinweiss

    Comment

    • twoqu
      S2Forum Possessed
      • Sep 2003
      • 3103

      #3
      Going back some years the technical side of AMd, think it was called Millford something, used to a hot film afm upgrade for Porsche and I think some Golfs. It was a substantial improvement on the Porsche I seem to remember.

      Comment

      • Jamo
        Retired OG Mod
        • Mar 2004
        • 21750
        • Country: United Kingdom

        #4
        Great project Paul, isn't Monstereddie running a hotfilm MAF on motronics?

        Comment

        • AndyP
          S2Forum Zealot
          • Feb 2004
          • 6049
          • Country: England

          #5
          Originally posted by twoqu
          Going back some years the technical side of AMd, think it was called Millford something, used to a hot film afm upgrade for Porsche and I think some Golfs. It was a substantial improvement on the Porsche I seem to remember.
          That was back in the good old days when Geoff Everett ran AMD, he's still involved with Milford though.

          sigpic
          1991 Audi S2 3B - 2.5 Stroker engine
          1997 A6 2.5TDi quattro avant - C4
          1976 RD250E / 350LC cafe racer

          Comment

          • S2central.net
            Retired OG Mod
            • Jul 2003
            • 16590
            • Country: Northern Ireland

            #6
            I've certainly heard of the hotfilm MAF being added to porkers - there's a few diy tuner web sites talking to that - more often associated with removing the airflap style of metering on Bosch L-Jetronic systems... The hotwire LH systems followed that, then got reused in like of our Motronic.

            I'm hoping to help someone else in such a Porsche application to migrate it from flappy pot of 1989 vintage to HFW or HFM. The tricks learnt from that should hopefully be generic enough to help fathom the mysteries of this on S2/RS2 ECUs
            Paul Nugent
            Webmaster http://S2central.net
            Administrator http://S2forum.com

            1994 S2 Coupe ABY - aka Project Lazarus
            2001 A6 allroad 2.5TDi - family tank
            2003 S4 Avant 4.2 V8 - daily burble

            Purveyor of HomeFries and Exclusive agent for Samco hose kits (S2/RS2)

            There are only 10 kinds of people that understand binary - those that do, and those that don't

            Comment

            • Flat on my back
              S2Forum Fiend
              • Jan 2007
              • 2449
              • Country: United Kingdom

              #7
              Just been on the s2central site.

              Cant find a 'make a donation' link...cant think of any other way of helping out with all the sterling work your up to.

              Sterling work...
              Carlos.

              On the look out for less bits for my s2 saloon project. Now supporting myself by shooting for my food. www.airgunforum.co.uk

              Comment

              • Rusty
                Super Moderator
                • Jun 2004
                • 18953
                • Country: United Kingdom

                #8
                Originally posted by Flat on my back
                Cant find a 'make a donation' link...cant think of any other way of helping out with all the sterling work your up to.

                Sterling work...
                It's on the front page
                Cheers'en, AndyC
                1994 ABY Coupe - Projekt Alpinweiss

                Comment

                • BrianSmith_S2
                  S2Forum Extremist
                  • Jun 2005
                  • 1342
                  • Home: Northern Ireland Current: British Antarctic Territory

                  #9
                  Ive got some experience of using Pico technologys ADC-11 (see photo). I use it at work for analysing and fault finding on some of the electronic/pneumatic servo control systems were developing at work. I use it to read voltages direct and to monitor air pressure via pressure to voltage convertors (see photo)

                  The picolog software is nice n easy to use, once youve played around with it. The old version i use requires a serial connection, but the new one is USB. Im sure it would be ideal to read outputs from the maf, and to also (with the air to volt convertor) measure boost pressures, etc.

                  Think they retail for less than £100 with the software.

                  Brian
                  Attached Files

                  Comment

                  • mcandmar
                    S2Forum Zealot
                    • Apr 2004
                    • 5118
                    • Country: Ireland

                    #10
                    Originally posted by S2central.net
                    I've certainly heard of the hotfilm MAF being added to porkers - there's a few diy tuner web sites talking to that - more often associated with removing the airflap style of metering on Bosch L-Jetronic systems... The hotwire LH systems followed that, then got reused in like of our Motronic.

                    I'm hoping to help someone else in such a Porsche application to migrate it from flappy pot of 1989 vintage to HFW or HFM. The tricks learnt from that should hopefully be generic enough to help fathom the mysteries of this on S2/RS2 ECUs
                    Our 993 uses something similar, just looks like a bit of circuit board stuck in the air flow. The body of the maf looked very similar to an S2 item which caught my interest, having seen people mention problems with hot wires breaking in high HP applications it seems a plausible solution, its even made by Bosch.
                    91CQ20v - Gone to a new home
                    93UR-S4 - The Magic Carpet
                    94S2Bus - The Emerald Express

                    Comment

                    • S2central.net
                      Retired OG Mod
                      • Jul 2003
                      • 16590
                      • Country: Northern Ireland

                      #11
                      Just noticed the picotech is limited to max voltage input of 2.5V but that's easy enough to overcome with a voltage divider.

                      Picotech is about right money and functionality I think... Hah - I aint priced the hotfilm MAF yet - hope thats not a nasty surprise !
                      Paul Nugent
                      Webmaster http://S2central.net
                      Administrator http://S2forum.com

                      1994 S2 Coupe ABY - aka Project Lazarus
                      2001 A6 allroad 2.5TDi - family tank
                      2003 S4 Avant 4.2 V8 - daily burble

                      Purveyor of HomeFries and Exclusive agent for Samco hose kits (S2/RS2)

                      There are only 10 kinds of people that understand binary - those that do, and those that don't

                      Comment

                      • S2central.net
                        Retired OG Mod
                        • Jul 2003
                        • 16590
                        • Country: Northern Ireland

                        #12
                        Bosch HFM5 - looks like five family members... And the big one is fitted to SCANIA and MANN trucks. Thats some MAF with a 130mm diameter

                        1000kg/hr capability - thats 278g/s...

                        Bosch 0 281 002 421 and looks like sub £200 brand new. There are a few other choices which appear to have usefully extended dynamic range vs the S2/RS2 item.

                        Datasheet is online if you look hard enough - but its also published by Bosch in another publication.
                        Paul Nugent
                        Webmaster http://S2central.net
                        Administrator http://S2forum.com

                        1994 S2 Coupe ABY - aka Project Lazarus
                        2001 A6 allroad 2.5TDi - family tank
                        2003 S4 Avant 4.2 V8 - daily burble

                        Purveyor of HomeFries and Exclusive agent for Samco hose kits (S2/RS2)

                        There are only 10 kinds of people that understand binary - those that do, and those that don't

                        Comment

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