Engine upgrade path

[dan_b]

Ok. If the dark side starts to call, (and I'm not saying it is, or isn't, but...)

Here's where we are now:

3B with MTM stage 1 re-chip
Scorpion de-cat
K&N cone

What's the next, cost-effective, upgrade, and what power does it buy you? How difficult/time-consuming/expensive would it be to fit?

I'm not talking major re-build here with new injectors, manifolds, intercoolers, cams etc, but a sort of Stage 1.5.

[S2central.net]

Dan - without a bigger turbo, then there isn't much more to be had on your config assuming its pulling about 410Nm torque and 270bhp as you'd expect - maybe more cos of deCATs. I guess you are running circa 1.4bar max - if not then try the home brew for comparisons.

I don't consider the RS2 intercooler to be a major piece of effort - sure it aint cheap but it will keep air temps down and that always means more ooomf. Good insurance really. Only hassle is getting a bracket to fit the RS2 IC onto the S2 x-member - but no biggie for anyone who can fabricate such an item from alloy or mild steel sheet. Oh and the 3B hose from the turbo will need shortened a tad for the RS2 intercooler.

Another good insurance policy is the Samco hoses (available soon for 3B) - the stock ones don't survive long at upgraded boost levels. The Samco ones will withstand silly boost pressures very well for a long time.

A good supply of cold clean air into that K&N will have benefits and you might want to consider an intercooler mister - Doug got the Autospeed kit I think.

And finally another great way to clean up the air intake and reduce temperature further is with an air/oil cyclone / separator / call it what you will. If you've ever removed your intercooler you'd be disgusted by the spoonful of oily goo lurking down there - it gets blown into the engine by the factory PCV system - nasty. I'd love someone to rig up an 'evacusump' system on their S2 and get before and after readings on the same dyno to get a handle on how worthwhile this tweak is...

Collectively these small gains *might* give you something tangible that you can feel behind the wheel, but without objective and repeatable testing its quite hard to guage some of these things.

Thats all I can think off - the Stage 2 mod with RS2 turbo, RS2 EM, 7A EX camshaft, 7A FPR and green injectors is the next tried and trusted combination for a safe and reliable 350-370bhp and over 550Nm. Would need mapped by Mihnea - needs a 3bar MAP in the ECU as well of course. Oh and you'd need the metal head gasket and RS2 big end bearings a well... Plus a bucket load of other nuts, bolts, washers, gaskets and schtuff to rebuild the donkey properly. Oh and while the engine is out you'd be silly not to uprate the clutch and get the flywheel lightened by an expert - dynamically of course with your crank & other rotational gubbins. Scarey isn't it ?

Some folk would try to sell you nitrous injection as a quick power fix, but I don't feel comfortable with that myself. It always smacks of good ol' boys with big undertuned V8s that are partial to the odd bit of drag racing.


Paul

[Sidspud]

I'm sure there are guys on here who have bolted on an RS2 turbo without changing anything else. That would give you around 300BHP.

Even better - when you have the S2 turbo off, replace the exhaust manifold for an RS2 version. 315BHP?

We're getting close to a 1.9 here, but as Paul has said, there's not that much more you can do.
Stripping out the interior will lose some weight, but might reduce comfort factors as well.

I'd recommend just saving up and getting a full blown RS2 conversion. You don't have to do it all at once. Buy a turbo next month. The EM a couple of months later, Intercooler after that, etc, etc. I've set myself a target of late 2005 to have everything and I've only got an RS2 intercooler. But I will get there. There's a RS4 and a late M3 local to me that I'm gagging to go up against.

Alternatively - 6 numbers on tonights lotto......

[dan_b]

So really, sensibly speaking, you're talking the RS2 turbo, the RS2 manifold, the RS2 intercooler, hoses, and of course the ubiquitous remap.
Do you need the cams/injectors/head gasket as well for all that, or is it a case of "well you only want to do it once, so you'd be mad not to"

How much? Where from?

Can't believe I'm even considering this, argh.

[Doug_RS2]

You can still get a decent anount of power/torque if you keep your standard injectors - ask SteveH. But if you are doing it, you might as well do it properly. Instead of RS2 injectors it might be cheaper sourcing even bigger injectors or similar - it does't matter if they are bigger than RS2 as you will be custom mapped anyway.

Best way to ge the parts would be to catch someone who is going to upgrade from this already - or post in the wanted section.

[porkkis]

Couldn't the MTM "small hybrid" turbo be quite a good evolution 1.5? Around 300-310hp, maybe a bit more with your current exhaust and intake. A backup of suitable MTM software could probably be found somewhere and it uses 250kpa MAP.

[dan_b]

In rough terms, what should you expect to pay for the:
RS2 intercooler
RS2 turbo
RS2 exhaust manifold?
Remap (including 3Bar map).

I'm presuming that the new replacment parts are lethally expensive, so 2nd hand is the way to go? Breakers? ebay? Other chaps here?

I don't have easy access to a ramp, or a wide range of tools, are these things difficult/time consuming to fit?

Damn the darkside!

[Doug_RS2]

RS2 intercooler £200 S/H
RS2 turbo £350 S/H
RS2 exhaust manifold? £200 S/H
Remap (including 3Bar map). 700 Euros

It is all just nuts and bolts - apart from welding the bracket for the RS2 IC. You need to be prepared to skin your knuckles - you don't need a ramp. And there is the possibilty of the the EM studs breaking - these need to be replaced with RS2 ones or a couple of originals cut.

You should really do the headgasket and rod shells on the 3B as well - that will get your hands a bit more dirty.

[Mark Halligan]

You should really do the headgasket and rod shells on the 3B as well - that will get your hands a bit more dirty.

Agreed,

These engines are strong but upping the the power will take its toll, ask Tom. This time last year I was bolting on the go faster bits (admittedly a bit more pokey than the RS2 spec) and twelve months on, I am rebuilding the whole thing from the sump up.

Yep, beware the dark side .

Mark.

[Sweeper]

Doug: When do the RS2 exh manifold become so cheap ? Can you sort me one for 200 pounds ?

Vadim.

[Doug_RS2]

Sweeper - I bought a brand new one for £300 - that is with a trade discount - i wouldn't pay much over £200 for a second hand one. I will sell you my cracked one for £200? I don't rate the RS2 EM anyway - most I know of, putting out more than 315bhp have cracked.

[Sweeper]

Doug: You ruined my hopes . I was dreaming of around 350HP with full rs2 conversion !

What should I do now ? I can make a custom made out of SS no problem for much less than what rs2 cost is will it be better that rs2 if rs2 cracks on 315HP ? :E

P.S. How badly it's cracked ?

[Doug_RS2]

I know of a chipped RS2 that the EM cracked, mine is cracked and another S2 with >350bhp is cracked. I haven't heard of them breaking up - and they might last a long time yet - They are cracked where all 5 runners join. The RS2 EM is good only because it is a straight swap - anything else involves a lot more work.

Custom manifolds might crack as well - there are some on the market that do crack, get fixed, but just crack again.

[Sweeper]

Damn. Damn. Damn.

What material then it should be made of ! How how much thermal degrees to take ?

About that cracked one , thouse cracks , what bad in thouse anyway ? I don't think it will brake , what are the downsides ?

Vadim.

[s2avant]

I've been looking into the cracking issue and it seems it's caused by engine movement especially in the right hand engine mount. I can see how this coupled with the movement in the stock snub mount setup when launching the car could put strain on the EM.

Has anybody looked into this more thoroughly?

Ben