Holset HX40 vs GT3076R

[A80Avant]

the method we used to meaaure was the same for the 2 cars and the same spot.So thw results are comparable. Dont forget that your hx40 then was bigger than my 3071, so one wouls excpect to see much more power difference between the 2 turbos. we didnt.All we saw was a great spool.maybe holsets produce their power at much higher boosts.

[Billman]

the method we used to meaaure was the same for the 2 cars and the same spot.So thw results are comparable. Dont forget that your hx40 then was bigger than my 3071, so one wouls excpect to see much more power difference between the 2 turbos. we didnt.All we saw was a great spool.maybe holsets produce their power at much higher boosts.

I wasn't expecting to see more power when we where comparing the cars in 3 gear (mine with a bigger turbo, smaller IC and engine with 200000 km) and 0.5 bar difference.

You can simply make a test with your setup just out of curiosity: set the boost on vems at 1.3bar max in 3. Gear and make a run then the same with 1.8 bar. Let's see what 0.5 does at high rpm on the same car, same turbo, same day, same calculations!

Btw we also made a clip (not during test runs) back then that is available in YouTube if you search rs2 holset vems.

[A80Avant]

yes we did, but just a video of the rev and km counter does not prove anything from youtube. Yes the car was fast, but at the same time not as fast as i personaly expected. At the same time when you put this turbo on that you made, you thought that the 0.70AR i used was too big, and the hotside you were going to use was going to be better because of the dual port.

With the boost characteristics you are getting on the stroker now, you realise that it is too big hotside. Do you still have the 0.70AR to try it on? that would be better obviously.

i can do that test on the garrett, but that will only give figures of the garrett which is not meant to be used more than 2.5bar as it is off their chart. Holsets are well in their charts when boosted to 3+bar. So to me that makes me think that maybe 1.3 bar means nothing tothem and 1.8 as well. But if used for 2.5-2.7bar steady boost, they might be producing some serious power.

Personally i wouldnt want to use those boost figures on a daily car. Even the fact that the spooling is instant on the garrett and on the holset it isnt, makes a difference for me.

Billman, i think this comparison you are trying to make is useless, simply because the holsets are for serious horsepower and the 3076 with the 0.82AR is the absolute limit for an everyday use car. Building a very uneven turbocharger with a small hotside and large compressor (such as buying a GT35 with the 0.63AR) seems unreasonable to me esp.when you are not aimed to produce more than 500hp on an everyday ride.

By using a machined or a tiny hotside on the HX40 you are limiting its ability to produce the amount of HP that the compressor can flow, so what is the point? Price difference? sure. you are buying a holset and trying to modify parts, experiment to get it right, when you have a solution in front of you. I chose option 2. You like experimenting, so here is your chance. By the end of the month you will have a chance to make runs and logs with the perfomance box, and you can prove me wrong!

[Billman]

yes we did, but just a video of the rev and km counter does not prove anything from youtube. Yes the car was fast, but at the same time not as fast as i personaly expected. At the same time when you put this turbo on that you made, you thought that the 0.70AR i used was too big, and the hotside you were going to use was going to be better because of the dual port.

With the boost characteristics you are getting on the stroker now, you realise that it is too big hotside. Do you still have the 0.70AR to try it on? that would be better obviously.

i can do that test on the garrett, but that will only give figures of the garrett which is not meant to be used more than 2.5bar as it is off their chart. Holsets are well in their charts when boosted to 3+bar. So to me that makes me think that maybe 1.3 bar means nothing tothem and 1.8 as well. But if used for 2.5-2.7bar steady boost, they might be producing some serious power.

Personally i wouldnt want to use those boost figures on a daily car. Even the fact that the spooling is instant on the garrett and on the holset it isnt, makes a difference for me.

Billman, i think this comparison you are trying to make is useless, simply because the holsets are for serious horsepower and the 3076 with the 0.82AR is the absolute limit for an everyday use car. Building a very uneven turbocharger with a small hotside and large compressor (such as buying a GT35 with the 0.63AR) seems unreasonable to me esp.when you are not aimed to produce more than 500hp on an everyday ride.

By using a machined or a tiny hotside on the HX40 you are limiting its ability to produce the amount of HP that the compressor can flow, so what is the point? Price difference? sure. you are buying a holset and trying to modify parts, experiment to get it right, when you have a solution in front of you. I chose option 2. You like experimenting, so here is your chance. By the end of the month you will have a chance to make runs and logs with the perfomance box, and you can prove me wrong!

1. Don't feel provoked. The reference on YouTube was not to prove the hp. Anyone chooses what he want and feels that it suit his car better.

2. The turbo I am using now is smaller than the hx40 the 0.70 was meant.

3. A dual scroll housing is better only if used in a manifold made for this.

4. If you see the Holset compressor maps you will notice that the high efficiency islands begin from 1bar+

5. In Nervas old setup we have seen how much HP a holset can do even with 1.1 bar or so.

6. 3400 rpm boost is not instant spool...

7. When using smaller housing than the diesels ones witch are Hugh you simply make the turbo more suitable for your application. As you can see on the post above even Garrett sells small or large housing in order to make a turbo fit better the intended application. A big compressor impeller is not only for high hp but also for efficiency.

8. Some of us choose this route because we find not only cheaper but more interesting. It is the journey that I like.

9. I will not have till then the smaller housing because in order to have it fast I would pay the double price. So if I don't find a sponsor I have to wait.

What I am trying to do here is say some thoughts out loud and hear opinions and not make a war.

[Thuppu]

I don't understand the fuzz here..? If the dynosheet in the first post was measured with the same setup, only the turbo is different, then the results is quite interesting. Bigger Holset spools as fast as smaller Garret and gives you also quite a lot more power in the top end. What is the problem here? If the Garrett has a too big hot side housing, so what, it would give even less power with smaller one. The HX35 is closer to the Garrett, it's a 530+hp turbo, how does it spool up? Would be nice to see...

[A80Avant]

1. Don't feel provoked. The reference on YouTube was not to prove the hp. Anyone chooses what he want and feels that it suit his car better.

2. The turbo I am using now is smaller than the hx40 the 0.70 was meant.

3. A dual scroll housing is better only if used in a manifold made for this.

4. If you see the Holset compressor maps you will notice that the high efficiency islands begin from 1bar+

5. In Nervas old setup we have seen how much HP a holset can do even with 1.1 bar or so.

6. 3400 rpm boost is not instant spool...

7. When using smaller housing than the diesels ones witch are Hugh you simply make the turbo more suitable for your application. As you can see on the post above even Garrett sells small or large housing in order to make a turbo fit better the intended application. A big compressor impeller is not only for high hp but also for efficiency.

8. Some of us choose this route because we find not only cheaper but more interesting. It is the journey that I like.

9. I will not have till then the smaller housing because in order to have it fast I would pay the double price. So if I don't find a sponsor I have to wait.

What I am trying to do here is say some thoughts out loud and hear opinions and not make a war.

1) Im not provoked, im answering to what you are writting. If you thought the video had no role, then why mention it?

2) If the turbo you are using now is smaller, then you think that a stroker getting 1bar after 4000rpm is good with this turbo? is that lagless?

3)That is not what you were speculating when you were all about using this hotside and telling me that 'wow this is going to be better because although its 1.1AR with the twin scroll its going to be less as used with our engine etc'.. you were wrong in that assumption then

4)Fine, they are efficient from 1bar. My HX40 felt no stronger than my 3076 on the same boost level after 5000rpm till redline. Whether you believe it or not... I have tried both at the end of the day, you havent.

5) Nervas had a racing engine, we dont. On that point, a 3076 has made 608hp on a properly made engine, which now rocco owns.And that was done on 1.8bar of boost. So its not only the turbo which will produce the hp.

6)Clarify in your mind what is lag and what spool. Spool is how fast the turbo will go from 0.3bar to 2bar the moment the turbo is able to do that.Lag is where on the rpm range it will do that. Garrett will therefore spool instantly and also reduce the lag on higher gears a lot more than what the HX40 did. If that is part of a larger hotside or not, i dont know.

8) i too thought it was going to be interesting...and it was, very interesting!!! However, if you say the holsets are soo much cheaper, then where is the rest of the money to do all these changes? When i contemplated what i could do with the holsets, it ends up being not much far away than buing a garrett.Since the latter provides a well known result, i went that way. Simple isnt it? If it is so cheap to experiment, then how come you are not doing it?


Good to say your opinion, better if you can back it up with results. I did have some results and i presented them. Thats all i have to say about this matter by the way.

[A80Avant]

I don't understand the fuzz here..? If the dynosheet in the first post was measured with the same setup, only the turbo is different, then the results is quite interesting. Bigger Holset spools as fast as smaller Garret and gives you also quite a lot more power in the top end. What is the problem here? If the Garrett has a too big hot side housing, so what, it would give even less power with smaller one. The HX35 is closer to the Garrett, it's a 530+hp turbo, how does it spool up? Would be nice to see...

thats a problem there, that the posted results are without additional info

[Billman]

5) Nervas had a racing engine, we dont. On that point, a 3076 has made 608hp on a properly made engine, which now rocco owns.And that was done on 1.8bar of boost. So its not only the turbo which will produce the hp.

I will simply leave the rest because i think we have a communication breakdown here (maybe because 2 Greeks try to resolve something in English.

About the 608 i seriously doubt that! As i said the turbo will place the margins of the HP that can be made. If it was so, the WRC (and they are properly made engines) would make more than the unofficially 350 hp with their restrictor on the compressor inducer.

[A80Avant]

the thread is in the forum. look it up. It is not uncommon for turbos to be underrated.

mine almost produces the 500 figure with no cam modifications or cylinder porting, dual cats and 70mm catback.

not trying to convince you about anything Bill, im merely stating my experience. you are there to prove me wrong. I believe in Holsets myself, but they are just not as good as they say about fast spool and lag on a normal engine. They are also not cheap if you consider buying another hotside and modifying it to make the turbo have less lag. The price difference is negligable.

[Billman]

Something interesting maybe for others than me.

This is the output of JP's engine with 7a reclocked cams and gt30r with 0.63 AR turbo and head work



3000 275nm 120hp
3500 375nm 200hp
4000 610nm 350hp
4500 630nm 400hp

And this from this finish guy with head job (somehow) schrick cams and hx40 with 16ccm housing and tubular manifold



3000 RPM 260 NM 120 HP
3500 RPM 325 NM 150 HP
4000 RPM 475 NM 270 HP
4500 RPM 680 NM 440 HP

You can see the difference in output during the spool up and the difference in the turbo efficiency (apparently) at almost same boost levels with the gt30r being really pushed at it's limits with this well made engine of JP.

It also seems that the spool is with approximate 250-300 rpm difference.

Please comment. Is that the main difference or I am missing something?

[A80Avant]

Billman, im sorry but when you say that the finnish guy has a ported head of unknown quality, and inlet manifold again of unknown efficiency, i think you are slightly misjudging the guy, because for all we know, the quality of his porting and inlet manifold may be equal or better as well !! ( that is what unknown translates to me!) on top of that he uses shrick cams and those are not unknown to anyone.

As for power figures, it is more than clear that the GT30R produces more torque and power from 3500 and 4000rpm than Holset, but then is not as big as the holset to keep that torque/power level at 4500rpm!! At 4000rpm the difference is massive, and im sure this is very well felt when driving the car(and believe me i felt it as well when i had the Holset in and i can tell the difference now that i dont and i have the GT30R.

Powerwise at 3500 there is 50hp difference and at 4000rpm there is a 80hp difference and that again is massive! Of course then the Holset kicks in (fiiiiinaly) and the whole thing turns around.

To me it is clear that the GT30R starts up much quicker and from my experience anything >300rpm difference is hugely noticable. Also the GT30R is not completely squeezed as if you want you can still increase the boost as overboost of course and be on a positive island in the map.

for comparison (if these runs where on 4th gear) i have full boost on that with my setup at 3900rpm now where as with the holset i had it at around 4400rpm. Dont ask me about power and torque as i dont have those figures with the holset and didnt run it at 2bar

[Billman]

This is the statement of the owner:

Car specs:
The engine is a 82 millimeter bore stock-stroke block with 9:1cr JE pistons and some chinese conrods. Head is self-ported (or ruined, who knows..) with adjustable Schrick 268deg/10,9mm cams, fresh stock hydro lifters and slightly modified valves with Schrick dual springs. Self-made water piping exhaust manifold with a 60mm Tial-copy wastegate and a scremer pipe. 4" DP and 3,5" exhaust with a resonator and an oval silencer. Self-made intake manifold, stock throttle, 3" boost piping, 600x300x75mm cooler. In the dyno I was running a Holset HX40 Super (60/65) with 16cc exhaust housing. Vems ecu, 034 coils, 875cc siemens injectors. 10mm fuel lines with twin Bosch 044 pumps, 3 liter fuel reservoir with a 80lb Carter transfer pump. Mallory pressure regulator and a self-modified stock fuel rail with 14mm banjo bungs.

606hp at crank, 720Nm (531ft/lb) of torque. Running at 2bar (29psi) and around 17 deg spark. 98-octane pump gas, no water or meth injection or NOS. 7800rpm limit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3GMS-AB-7w&feature=channel_video_title

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZ6JKkRNv8A&feature=channel_video_title

Appart from all of it i said that there is approx 300 RPM lag in the Holset to achieve the same output as the Garrett till 4000 RPM but dont forget the massive housing difference with the Garrett at approx 6-7ccm and the holset at 16ccm.

[prj]

Here a graph posted on the forum in my country...:

http://mulk.planet.ee/S4_hx35super.pdf

[Billman]

more to this subject (updating not for the shake of argument but information exchange and genuine discussion):

Citation from DSM-Forum:

"I can show you a hx40 pro (flows more air than your turbo), that spools faster than your turbo though you have a 2.3L stroker. This hx40 user has a 2.0L motor. Look at the dsmlink forums much? 20psi (GM MAP verified) by 3900rpms with a 2.0L block. Don't even ask what this turbo can do at 40psi with a stroker. We all aready know.

Now, if you want to see transient response, the famed advantage of ballistic tech, take a look at Vigge's 4cylinder saab respool




Thanx to Vigge for messaging me some of his holset efforts from across the pond. . . Oh yea, that's an hx40 pro on a saab 2.3,the 70lb/min one; not a ball bearing HTA gt35r on a 2.4l motor. The world of DSMs is small and closed-minded indeed. The black line is the boost.

Ballistic tech means nothing to spool and respool compared to what efficiency does for spool and respool. Even garret falls back on their reliability factor . Read up on that one. I am not going to spend an hour bashing bb turbos. But I will say that more efficient wheels need less energy to rotate them, regardless of bearing structure. That's what it means to have more numbers to the left of this =>% particular sign on the compressor map and turbine map.

[Jamo]

What I find disturbing is for these test turbo is changed but mapping and duty cycle for wgfv isn't
Different turbos require different spark and wgfv duty for them to work optimally
A true test would be side by side mapping with same supporting hardware on same engine