Are there any CNG-powered 20vT UrS cars?

[UrS4boy]

CNG = compressed natural gas, similar to but different than LPG = Liquified Propane Gas.

I was reading the article below and said "Hmmm....."

http://www.autoblog.com/2009/05/28/2...or-fastest-ca/

Biogas is the future.

[prj]

I actually thought a bit about converting my car to LPG (not CNG).
This is like running on race gas all the time, meaning you can run a LOT more timing.

Any system that is progressive - meaning it works off injector pulsewidth of the stock injectors can be easily re-tuned to make more power.

So you get more power and are more environmentally friendly - the main problem is the relatively high cost of the modification.

[UrS4boy]

I actually thought a bit about converting my car to LPG (not CNG). This is like running on race gas all the time, meaning you can run a LOT more timing. Any system that is progressive - meaning it works off injector pulsewidth of the stock injectors can be easily re-tuned to make more power. So you get more power and are more environmentally friendly - the main problem is the relatively high cost of the modification.

A beg to differ on LPG or CNG = environmentally friendly. Both are fossil fuels. What I am really interested in is the use of biogas.

Biogas is methane created through the anaerobic digestion of organic material, including food waste, cattle manure and wastewater (sewage) treatment sludges. Raw biogas contains C02 and methane which can be used to power cogeneration (heat and electrical power) generation systems, e.g. a Waukesha or Caterpiller or Jennbacher turbo-charged V10, V12 or V20 stationary engine. Biogas in automotive use requires that the CO2 be removed through pressure swing adsorption or high pressure wet scrubbing to the point that methane is at least 93% of the total volume. There is extensive use of biogas in Sweden including a portion of the bus fleet in Stockholm and Goteburg. Germany is developing biogas as a means to diminish the need for fossil fuels and nuclear energy. I know France also has a biogas program. Not sure about Britain.

One of the benefits of biogas is the CO2 that is created when biogas is burned is "biogenic", i.e. it came from plant matter that extracted CO2 from the atmosphere and, as a result, the CO2 that is released is not new CO2 and does not add to global warming. This is not the case of burning compressed natural gas (CNG) or liquified propane (LPG) in a vehicle because they are both fossil fuels and the C02 that is released does add to global warming.

Any car that can run on compressed natural gas (which is almost pure methane after the propane and butane are removed) can run on biogas. Honda makes a GX Civic for the American market (mostly CA and UT now). In Europe, I think all the major manufactures (maybe except Audi) have CNG cars that can run on vehicle-grade biogas.

[Dan]

Britain uses biogas on a very small scale to suppliment power production. Nothing serious.

As I see it, the best thing for the environment isn't to go buy a shiny new Prius. When you consider the TCO, that shiny new Prius doesn't look so nice (whether that TCO is measured in $ or environmental impact).

Of course, I'm not saying it's better to buy a new Hummer - that's even worse. I'm certainly not slating the manufacturers for making new cars more economical. As a consumer however, why not keep an old car on the road instead? Every car that stays on the road is one less we need to make - that's 8 barrels of oil at the least!

For £9k I could've gone and bought a brand new Vauxhall Corsa. Instead, I bought an S2, spend a few £100 fixing it up and kept £5k change. Win-win, as I see it.

It's for this reason that I'd love to see an alternative fuel solution that allows us to keep older cars runnning. Ethanol is one solution, but that requires replacing food crops will fuel crops.

The brilliant thing about biogas is that it utilises existing waste. F**king awesome! </envirogeek>

So yeah, I'd be really interested to see an S2 running on CNC (or even actual biogas) too!

As a side note, what would be the easiest way to implement Pressure Swing Adsorption or High Pressure wet scrubbing on a small and economical scale?

[Jonnybravo]

There are a few Touring cars running LPG setups, I think Ford have been testing it for a while now. When I worked with Prins they had some development going on with a few race teams, sadly I never got the chance to get involved with any of it but we played around with a few big power F150's which responded extremely well to it, as did most other cars but we weren't in it for tuning, it was all for the savings so it wasn't like we were aiming to get anymore power, we just didn't want to lose any.

[s2_bo]

I have seen quite a few biogas plants in northern germany, they launched a very attractive subsidizing program a few years ago so a lot of farmers are now making biogas, the problem is the cost of getting the waste, so it seams at least in the north a lot of farmers are now using their fields to grow crop that can biodegrade and make gas, as it produces a higher yield its more profitable then planting other crops.
As a result of that other crops that would have been produced more locally are now being shipped in from abroad. = more use of diesel etc......

[UrS4boy]

... a lot of farmers are now using their fields to grow crop that can biodegrade and make gas, as it produces a higher yield its more profitable then planting other crops. As a result of that other crops that would have been produced more locally are now being shipped in from abroad. = more use of diesel etc......

Crazy. It is supposed to work off post-consumer WASTE, not displacing food crops.

Can't win.

Anyway, I am still a biogas supporter.

[andy10v]

A beg to differ on LPG or CNG = environmentally friendly. Both are fossil fuels.

One of the benefits of biogas is the CO2 that is created when biogas is burned is "biogenic", i.e. it came from plant matter that extracted CO2 from the atmosphere and, as a result, the CO2 that is released is not new CO2 and does not add to global warming. This is not the case of burning compressed natural gas (CNG) or liquified propane (LPG) in a vehicle because they are both fossil fuels and the C02 that is released does add to global warming.

Is is the CO2 from fossil fuels not from plant matter then?

[UrS4boy]

Is is the CO2 from fossil fuels not from plant matter then?

Yes it is (plants, algae, things that ate plants and algae, things that ate things that ate plant and algae, etc.). However, because it is SOoooo old, i.e. fossilized as oil or natural gas, it is considered to be "new" or autogenic CO2 that adds to the existing CO2 inventory.

You can probably Google a better answer but that is the one I know.

[andy10v]

it is considered to be "new" or autogenic CO2 that adds to the existing CO2 inventory.

That is the bit I was wondering about, cheers

Considered to be even though it aint, got to draw a line somewhere I suppose.

[S2central.net]

diesel_des runs LPG on his AAN motor... pretty sure he installed it & config'd himself - looks mad in the engine bay but seems to work a treat. No idea how similar the install for CNG would be. I am personally put off by the butt ugly tank in the trunk - but its a lot cheaper to run after the relatively high installation cost is factored in.

[s2_bo]

My S8 runs on LPG and it actually runs better on GAS then on petrol, i think the LPG ECU was not tuned properly at installation so the fuel trims are for ever adjusting on both the banks when it swaps from one to the other. I try to run it on gas as much as poss so it doesnt have to make to many adjustments, It can even start on gas if its out of petrol...

Economy is also ok, i can get 300+ miles out of a full tank (90l capacity filled 80%) and here in france lpg is half the price of 95ron petrol

Sorry for the off topic

[S2central.net]

it would make sense on a gas guzzling S8 and you have that cavernous boot to hide the tank in... probably loads of room left over

[Dan]

Anyone know how different the install for CNG is compared to LPG? Are there systems that can flex between the two?

Good to hear they can be run on LPG, anyway.

[EspenW]

I actually thought a bit about converting my car to LPG (not CNG).
This is like running on race gas all the time, meaning you can run a LOT more timing.

Any system that is progressive - meaning it works off injector pulsewidth of the stock injectors can be easily re-tuned to make more power.

So you get more power and are more environmentally friendly - the main problem is the relatively high cost of the modification.

E85 will do the same, and has a crazy cooling effect in addition (E85 at 20C has the cooling effect of petrol cooled to around -60C)
I gained 40hp and 70nm at the wheels with no other changes than fuel flow. Then I cranked the boost to 2.2+ bar and saw added gains. Have peaked at 2.5 bar at most.