Garret O,P,Q trim hot side wheel... what's the difference?

[20Volt]

What is the difference between Garret's O, P and Q trim hot side wheel?
Which one is the best for the 20VT???

[caterpillar]

What is the difference between Garret's O, P and Q trim hot side wheel?
Which one is the best for the 20VT???

i want to know too who can tell us

[olsonjus]

Here is a graph of how a 0 trim spools on a 2.3 20v pushing 25psi.

[20Volt]

Here is a graph of how a 0 trim spools on a 2.3 20v pushing 25psi.

What A/R and what size of wheel?

The actiopn starts at 5500 rpm? Sounds not too good for road use.

[olsonjus]

That is in a .63 a/r t3 turbine housing. This turbo probably isn't too good for road racing on smaller tracks but would own on tracks with long straights.

[JSHADZI]

That is in a .63 a/r t3 turbine housing. This turbo probably isn't too good for road racing on smaller tracks but would own on tracks with long straights.

Hello, yes, that is off my car

I am also running agressive cams, CAT 272/264 cams with 11mm lift, this is mostly to result from the powerband you see, I think with some stock cams, or even RS2, power would come in much stronger by 4krpm, vs 5krpm.

The following is a dyno plot between a Standard T3 turbine with 45mm exducer and the 65mm T04 exducer I'm running. As you can see, the low speed power is dictated by the cams, as these 2 extremely different turbos have basically the same output below 5krpm:

http://www.motorgeek.com/phpBB2/files/80tq20vturbocomparo.jpg

You can see the powerband in action here with these videos (big turbo, 25psi, 7600rpm):

http://www.034efi.com/Movies/80tq20v1_2.avi

http://www.034efi.com/Movies/80tq20v2_3.avi

The difference between these 3 wheels is size. The increased size means higher flow through the turbine blades, and thus more lag due to velocity and mass changes. The O trim turbine is very similar to the T3 Stage 5 turbine wheel, the P-trim exducer I'm running measures 65mm, this is a VERY lage turbine, and isn't recommended for any application under 400 crank HP or where low speed response is a big consideration.

I regularily fit P and O-trim wheels in the K26# 6 housing as well for 400+, 4500rpm and up applications.

My car is a real dog to drive around below 4krpm, but above 5500 rpm there is only a handful of cars on the road that could touch it, and from the videos, you can see that even with the lag and casual shifting, the speeds built very quickly.

[Audi_CQ]

My car is a real dog to drive around below 4krpm, but above 5500 rpm there is only a handful of cars on the road that could touch it, and from the videos, you can see that even with the lag and casual shifting, the speeds built very quickly.

A real dog like no power at all (less then 2.3 20v)?
Sorry for asking since it seems like you know what your doing , but are you sure your cams are set up right?

I've got a 2.5 with good flowing head, Cat 266 cams, selfmade inlet and tubular ex. manifold, large IC like yours , Innovative GT61 w/dual BB (Q-trim, A/R 0.96).
This setup is really nice to drive even at low rpm. Much crisper than both 2.3 10 and 20v's. In higher gears 4, 5 & 6 it starts to make boost at ~3500 (~0.5bar) and flies at 4000. Not been dynoed yet, but tested with a G-tech and got 400@wheels measured in 2. gear and just 1bar(~15psi). G-tech maybe not the most accurate, but the same G-tech had previously been tested on cars that had been to rollers, and it was accurate to within a few %.

Cheers,
Roger

[JSHADZI]

A real dog like no power at all (less then 2.3 20v)?
Sorry for asking since it seems like you know what your doing , but are you sure your cams are set up right?

I've got a 2.5 with good flowing head, Cat 266 cams, selfmade inlet and tubular ex. manifold, large IC like yours , Innovative GT61 w/dual BB (Q-trim, A/R 0.96).
This setup is really nice to drive even at low rpm. Much crisper than both 2.3 10 and 20v's. In higher gears 4, 5 & 6 it starts to make boost at ~3500 (~0.5bar) and flies at 4000. Not been dynoed yet, but tested with a G-tech and got 400@wheels measured in 2. gear and just 1bar(~15psi). G-tech maybe not the most accurate, but the same G-tech had previously been tested on cars that had been to rollers, and it was accurate to within a few %.

Cheers,
Roger

Hello, thanks for the info, the cams have been degreed to spec. I feel that the dyno curve is quite representative of the cam specs as degreed. This is really an 8200+ rpm motor, currently I'm limited by the hydraulic lifters. If you notice, the motor produces 375whp (at the wheels), flat from 6300rpm all the way to 7600rpm where the revlimiter begins to drop output. The cams I'm running have quite a bit more intake duration than the 266 you're running, and the extra displacement of our motor combined with less overlap greatly increases lower speed velocity and flow.

I'll be experimenting with the cam timing soon, I'd like to increase the lobe seperation (currently at 112d) to 114d to reduce overlap, as well as playing with mass cam timing changes, likely in the advance direction to bring the power band down slightly.

I may build another head with solid lifters as well, I would really love to rev this motor out past 8krpm, at 7k it feels like its just getting started.

Yes, below 4krpm, the motor is definitely slower than a stock 7A (confirmed since I also have a bone stock 7A ) The sound and power once the motor is on cam brings me back to the IMSA/GTO days, so bringing the power band down is somewhat dissapointing in that respect

[Audi_CQ]

Hello, thanks for the info, the cams have been degreed to spec. I feel that the dyno curve is quite representative of the cam specs as degreed. This is really an 8200+ rpm motor, currently I'm limited by the hydraulic lifters. If you notice, the motor produces 375whp (at the wheels), flat from 6300rpm all the way to 7600rpm where the revlimiter begins to drop output. The cams I'm running have quite a bit more intake duration than the 266 you're running, and the extra displacement of our motor combined with less overlap greatly increases lower speed velocity and flow.

I'll be experimenting with the cam timing soon, I'd like to increase the lobe seperation (currently at 112d) to 114d to reduce overlap, as well as playing with mass cam timing changes, likely in the advance direction to bring the power band down slightly.

I may build another head with solid lifters as well, I would really love to rev this motor out past 8krpm, at 7k it feels like its just getting started.

Yes, below 4krpm, the motor is definitely slower than a stock 7A (confirmed since I also have a bone stock 7A ) The sound and power once the motor is on cam brings me back to the IMSA/GTO days, so bringing the power band down is somewhat dissapointing in that respect

What about changing to another milder intake cam? Solid lifters = new cams or are you going to use the same cams? To much duration destroys drivability and low down power without giving so much more at top end. There are 2.2 engines that have 600+ hp at 6-6500 rpm so really no use in 8500 capabillity when the turbo are maxed out at 6500 or?

Regarding sound and power, it brings a smile to my face everytime I floor it. The engine really screams "more, more, more" as you rev it and the g-force make my cd's fall out of the compartment under the steering wheel, when the boost comes in at ~4k in 2. gear

[JSHADZI]

What about changing to another milder intake cam? Solid lifters = new cams or are you going to use the same cams? To much duration destroys drivability and low down power without giving so much more at top end. There are 2.2 engines that have 600+ hp at 6-6500 rpm so really no use in 8500 capabillity when the turbo are maxed out at 6500 or?

Regarding sound and power, it brings a smile to my face everytime I floor it. The engine really screams "more, more, more" as you rev it and the g-force make my cd's fall out of the compartment under the steering wheel, when the boost comes in at ~4k in 2. gear

Well, before I go changing cams, I will increase lobe seperation to reduce overlap, my cams have adjustable timing gear sprockets on them. I think with a little less overlap, these cams should really come up to speed sooner. With the right turbo, 10k rpm shouldn't be a problem, the turbo I am currently running wouldn't have any trouble keeping 28psi boost up to 8500rpm. I'll keep you guys posted on the developments.