380 to 400 hp AAN - advice

**QuattroFever** · 10 March 2012, 12:15

Standard fuel pump can do 380hp, On the limit at that really but i managed 400hp on mine.

Bigger IC?

**Kim1978** · 10 March 2012, 13:46

I will think about it with the fuel pump then.

I see no need for larger IC at this powerlevel.

**UrS4boy** · 10 March 2012, 16:12

Kim: I have a 93 S4 that I have RS2'd. Here are my comments on your list and some additional comments:

- Hybrid RS2 or K26/K27 turbo - RS2 turbo is getting close to maxxed out at 380 crank hp. K26/K27 will be very laggy and you won't be happy. Suggest 034's GT3071 Garrett/KKK hybrid (needs custom water and oil lines (or 034s kit))

- RS2 Exhaust manifold - that will help but the Wagner Engineering RS2 EVO manifold is even better - also it is available with a K26 flange or a T3 Garrett flange if you wanted to go completely Garrett (you will need custom oil and water lines)

- RS2 injectors - okay at 380 might be limiting above that. Your tuner can help you select larger injectors, as necessary.

- 3bar map sensor - for sure but you might want to consider a VMAP through EFI Express (maybe one that goes to 4 Bar)

- Bosch fuel pump - stock 091G pump is going to get maxxed out. A minimum, the fuel pump would need to be relayed to the battery to gain at least 1 Volt at the pump. Better would be a Bosch Motorsport 044 60 mm diameter pump (in a V8 60 mm pump basket).

- Larger downpipe - will help with spooling - EFI Express has one - but then it needs a custom exhaust. I presume TUV doesn't let you eliminate the cats.

- Southbend clutch - Yes. Some would say single mass flywheel too but not me.

- Custom map by PKM or prj - for sure, especially if you go anything non-OE RS2. With my all OE RS2 set-up, I am running a "generic" RS2 tune from MRC. 288 whp on a dyno (probably 360 crank hp, Mihnea likes safe tunes - I also have some SMS-derived software and while it made more hp, it was like an on/off switch on a nuclear explosion (difficult to drive smoothly in the twisting back roads).

Additional suggestions:

- RS2 or 7A exhaust cam - will help top end, could hurt low rpm torque

- Front mounted intercooler (DIY write up on Audifans, 63.5 mm thick core max) - it will help if you are on the throttle a lot in short sequences. I have an Apikol FMIC - but it is too thick for Euro C4 front bumpers.

Beyond that, you will have to open up the engine and replace the rods and rod bearings with something stouter (Pauter, Carillo, etc).

Good luck

**Jamo** · 10 March 2012, 16:47

7a cam doesn't help with spool. I wouldn't recommend changing cams at this power level, nothing to gain.

**UrS4boy** · 10 March 2012, 16:50

Originally posted by Jamo

7a cam doesn't help with spool. I wouldn't recommend changing cams at this power level, nothing to gain.

Spool nuked.

**Kim1978** · 10 March 2012, 17:05

Originally posted by UrS4boy

Kim: I have a 93 S4 that I have RS2'd. Here are my comments on your list and some additional comments:

- Hybrid RS2 or K26/K27 turbo - RS2 turbo is getting close to maxxed out at 380 crank hp. K26/K27 will be very laggy and you won't be happy. Suggest 034's GT3071 Garrett/KKK hybrid (needs custom water and oil lines (or 034s kit))

- RS2 Exhaust manifold - that will help but the Wagner Engineering RS2 EVO manifold is even better - also it is available with a K26 flange or a T3 Garrett flange if you wanted to go completely Garrett (you will need custom oil and water lines)

- RS2 injectors - okay at 380 might be limiting above that. Your tuner can help you select larger injectors, as necessary.

- 3bar map sensor - for sure but you might want to consider a VMAP through EFI Express (maybe one that goes to 4 Bar)

- Bosch fuel pump - stock 091G pump is going to get maxxed out. A minimum, the fuel pump would need to be relayed to the battery to gain at least 1 Volt at the pump. Better would be a Bosch Motorsport 044 60 mm diameter pump (in a V8 60 mm pump basket).

- Larger downpipe - will help with spooling - EFI Express has one - but then it needs a custom exhaust. I presume TUV doesn't let you eliminate the cats.

- Southbend clutch - Yes. Some would say single mass flywheel too but not me.

- Custom map by PKM or prj - for sure, especially if you go anything non-OE RS2. With my all OE RS2 set-up, I am running a "generic" RS2 tune from MRC. 288 whp on a dyno (probably 360 crank hp, Mihnea likes safe tunes - I also have some SMS-derived software and while it made more hp, it was like an on/off switch on a nuclear explosion (difficult to drive smoothly in the twisting back roads).

Additional suggestions:

- RS2 or 7A exhaust cam - will help spool and top end.

- Front mounted intercooler (DIY write up on Audifans, 63.5 mm thick core max) - it will help if you are on the throttle a lot in short sequences. I have an Apikol FMIC - but it is too thick for Euro C4 front bumpers.

Beyond that, you will have to open up the engine and replace the rods and rod bearings with something stouter (Pauter, Carillo, etc).

Good luck

Thank you URS4Boy for your answer.

I don’t mind lag, actually I kind of enjoy the old school kick in the butt as long as I have full boost before 4000 rpm. I am also worried the RS2 turbo will run out of breath at high rpms andI am sure the K26/27 will not. Do you feel it pulls hard all the way?
I want to keep everything looking as stock as possible so TüV will not give me problem and I think they will if I go Garrett as that is easy to spot.

Will the downpipe only improve spool and not top end power?

Do you mind posting your dyno sheet?

I will think about upgrading the cams, I am not sure how much that will bring though. Would that be a direct and simple swap?

**Kim1978** · 10 March 2012, 17:07

Originally posted by Jamo

7a cam doesn't help with spool. I wouldn't recommend changing cams at this power level, nothing to gain.

I dont care about spool, that is over-rated anyway - just down shift. I am all about a flat torque curve and top end power.

**UrS4boy** · 10 March 2012, 18:04

Originally posted by Kim1978

Thank you URS4Boy for your answer. ...Do you mind posting your dyno sheet? ...I will think about upgrading the cams, I am not sure how much that will bring though. Would that be a direct and simple swap?

I don't have postable dyno sheet but my friend Sean D. (quattro20v) who had exactly the same hardware (OE RS2 EM, injectors, turbo, MAF but no RS2 exhaust cam - I didn't then either) but running more aggressive MTM/Dahlback software shows 297 whp in this thread: http://forums.audiworld.com/showthread.php?t=2162139

Changing the exhaust cam is quite easy. At the same time you would do the cam cover gasket (Item 17 below), cam seal (Item 8 below) and maybe the cam chain (item 18 in the second diagram)

Cam caps need to be kept in proper order and orientation and torqued in a specific sequence:

**Mcstiff** · 10 March 2012, 19:24

This was 034s GT28RS but ignore the numbers and look at the difference in shape.

**Jamo** · 10 March 2012, 19:34

Originally posted by Kim1978

I dont care about spool, that is over-rated anyway - just down shift. I am all about a flat torque curve and top end power.

Your going after the wrong turbo if you want a flat torque curve
Kkk generally give a big kick and then taper quickly with torque
Garretts give flat curve with a lower peak
The billet hybrids kkk from hoffer seem to drop a bit of this behaviour though

**Mark.se** · 10 March 2012, 19:57

Hi,
Not sure if its much use.
I have a RS2 Comp. turbo (MTM hybrid) along with a MTM chip and map set up.
Here's a link to a picture of the dyno sheet

http://www.s6-audi.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=77&Itemid=55

**Kim1978** · 10 March 2012, 21:19

Originally posted by Jamo

Your going after the wrong turbo if you want a flat torque curve
Kkk generally give a big kick and then taper quickly with torque
Garretts give flat curve with a lower peak
The billet hybrids kkk from hoffer seem to drop a bit of this behaviour though

Does the hybrid turbos from Hoffer only improve spool due to the billet technology or do they perform more horse power as well?

**prj** · 11 March 2012, 13:26

Originally posted by Jamo

Your going after the wrong turbo if you want a flat torque curve
Kkk generally give a big kick and then taper quickly with torque
Garretts give flat curve with a lower peak
The billet hybrids kkk from hoffer seem to drop a bit of this behaviour though

The only reason this is so, is because of how people map cars. Nothing to do with the turbo maker.
If you map a K26/K27 to a constant 1.5-1.6 bar, you will have a very flat torque curve.
People map them to 1.9 bar usually though, and obviously it can't flow 1.9 bar at 7000 rpm, that would be in excess of 500hp on a standard head.

It's only a question of mapping.

The problem with a GT is, that if you took a turbo with RS2 turbo sized peak flow and ran it to 1.9 bar with huge taper all the time, it'd fall apart, whereas a KKK can keep going for years.

**macspring** · 11 March 2012, 14:10

Originally posted by UrS4boy

- Southbend clutch - Yes. Some would say single mass flywheel too but not me.

- Front mounted intercooler (DIY write up on Audifans, 63.5 mm thick core max) - it will help if you are on the throttle a lot in short sequences. I have an Apikol FMIC - but it is too thick for Euro C4 front bumpers.

Dave,

Helpful post.

Two questions lifted from your full post above, can you expand on why you prefer the dual mass flywheel over a 3b one ?

Is it possible to trim enough off a euro front bumper to fit an Apikol FMIC for a US urS6 to allow it to fit a european car ?, or will the bumper need too much taken off it to still stay in one piece ?

At all, what does a european urS6 owner use when they want a decent FMIC on a euro UrS6 ?

Thanks.

380 to 400 hp AAN - advice

380 to 400 hp AAN - advice

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