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  • Fuel Pressure 101

    Right - been looking into fuel pressure, pumps and flow curves recently. Wanted to capture some basic info here and confirm some thinking with the more experienced (officially learned) folk...

    The fuel pressure regulator (FPR) used on turbo engines like ours has the job of maintaining the *SAME* pressure across the fuel injectors. It does this by increasing the input pressure at the fuel rail in a linear fashion with boost pressure so that the effective pressure across the injectors is the same.

    Eg The FPR in an ABY is rated at 4bar at ambient pressure. At idle, when the engine pulls ~0.5bar vacuum, the FPR reduces rail pressure to 3.5bar. At 1.2bar manifold boost pressure, the FPR provides 5.2bar fuel rail pressure. In all cases we maintain the 'baseline' FPR rating of 4bar across the injectors.

    ABY injectors flow 320cc per minute at 4bar with 100% duty cycle - you'd never achieve that reliably in the real world with max duty cycle around 80-90%. So even at a notional 2bar boost, we still only flow 320cc per minute as the FPR lets the rail pressure increase to 6bar to compensate for 2bar of boost. Right ?

    So for this spec, knowing we only fire one injector at a time on the S2, we need a fuel pump easily capable of flowing 320cc of fuel per minute. We need to know the fuel pumps pressure/flow characteristic in order to determine that it can flow this amount of fuel at the increased rail pressure as demanded by the FPR.

    It is my understanding that an electric fuel pump's flow rate decreases with pressure - RIGHT ?

    Nominally the ABY fuel pump is spec'd to deliver 2 liters of fuel per minute with the engine not running - ie 4bar rail pressure and assuming worst case of 10V across the pump terminals. We need the pump's flow graph to determine how much fuel it flows at higher boost levels. All that excess fuel runs back to the tank by the return line of course.

    Based on that figure, my gut feel is that a healthy S2 fuel pump (and clean filter of course) has plenty of margin for RS2 applications which flow higher amounts of fuel on account of larger injectors, but its easy to see how a monster fuel pump (such as the Bosch motorsport spec'd one) can buy a good amont of insurance against poor fuel delivery in modified engines.

    If anybody has the Bosch reference and can post the flow/pressure graph for the S2 and RS2 pumps it would be mighty interesting.


    Paul
    Paul Nugent
    Webmaster http://S2central.net
    Administrator http://S2forum.com

    1994 S2 Coupe ABY - aka Project Lazarus
    2001 A6 allroad 2.5TDi - family tank
    2003 S4 Avant 4.2 V8 - daily burble

    Purveyor of HomeFries and Exclusive agent for Samco hose kits (S2/RS2)

    There are only 10 kinds of people that understand binary - those that do, and those that don't

  • #2
    Originally posted by S2central.net
    Right - been looking into fuel pressure, pumps and flow curves recently. Wanted to capture some basic info here and confirm some thinking with the more experienced (officially learned) folk...

    The fuel pressure regulator (FPR) used on turbo engines like ours has the job of maintaining the *SAME* pressure across the fuel injectors. It does this by increasing the input pressure at the fuel rail in a linear fashion with boost pressure so that the effective pressure across the injectors is the same.

    Eg The FPR in an ABY is rated at 4bar at ambient pressure. At idle, when the engine pulls ~0.5bar vacuum, the FPR reduces rail pressure to 3.5bar. At 1.2bar manifold boost pressure, the FPR provides 5.2bar fuel rail pressure. In all cases we maintain the 'baseline' FPR rating of 4bar across the injectors.

    ABY injectors flow 320cc per minute at 4bar with 100% duty cycle - you'd never achieve that reliably in the real world with max duty cycle around 80-90%. So even at a notional 2bar boost, we still only flow 320cc per minute as the FPR lets the rail pressure increase to 6bar to compensate for 2bar of boost. Right ?

    So for this spec, knowing we only fire one injector at a time on the S2, we need a fuel pump easily capable of flowing 320cc of fuel per minute. We need to know the fuel pumps pressure/flow characteristic in order to determine that it can flow this amount of fuel at the increased rail pressure as demanded by the FPR.

    It is my understanding that an electric fuel pump's flow rate decreases with pressure - RIGHT ?

    Nominally the ABY fuel pump is spec'd to deliver 2 liters of fuel per minute with the engine not running - ie 4bar rail pressure and assuming worst case of 10V across the pump terminals. We need the pump's flow graph to determine how much fuel it flows at higher boost levels. All that excess fuel runs back to the tank by the return line of course.

    Based on that figure, my gut feel is that a healthy S2 fuel pump (and clean filter of course) has plenty of margin for RS2 applications which flow higher amounts of fuel on account of larger injectors, but its easy to see how a monster fuel pump (such as the Bosch motorsport spec'd one) can buy a good amont of insurance against poor fuel delivery in modified engines.

    If anybody has the Bosch reference and can post the flow/pressure graph for the S2 and RS2 pumps it would be mighty interesting.


    Paul
    As pressure rises the flow rate should stay the same but the amps draw will increase, leak back will increase slightly also (passed the rollers).

    This works up to a point- blank the out let of the pump up- no flow but pressure through the roof.

    What cant change is the max flow liters/per min unless you increase voltage! eg have no current drops- high resistance so the pump see's battery voltage.

    if you ran the pump with say 24v = higher flow rate but would burn out in a short time the insulation on the windings!!

    Jay

    Comment


    • #3
      Agree with some of your feedback, but the graphs I've seen like this show flow decreasing with pressure.

      http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/fuel...Graphsmall.jpg


      Paul
      Paul Nugent
      Webmaster http://S2central.net
      Administrator http://S2forum.com

      1994 S2 Coupe ABY - aka Project Lazarus
      2001 A6 allroad 2.5TDi - family tank
      2003 S4 Avant 4.2 V8 - daily burble

      Purveyor of HomeFries and Exclusive agent for Samco hose kits (S2/RS2)

      There are only 10 kinds of people that understand binary - those that do, and those that don't

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by S2central.net
        Agree with some of your feedback, but the graphs I've seen like this show flow decreasing with pressure.

        http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/fuel...Graphsmall.jpg


        Paul
        I should have said in theory!! to maintain flow pressure must go up- flow dynamics and pump ineffiencys count for the loses. if you spin the pump at higher speed (increase voltage) the rollers are forced out centrefugally and this increases efficency by stopping flow reversal.

        Pumps work in strange ways things like cavitation and fluid dynamics cloud the issues!!

        Best to spec a pump with a big saftey margin so it never works hard and falls in the inefficency areas at the extreme of flow/pressure.

        Jay

        Comment


        • #5
          I mounted a Porsche pump in my tank. 380 hp 3.6 L Twin-turbo version. This one should be all right for my needs. But is wasn´t able to deliever enough fuel at the pressure I needed. Dropped to 5 bar @ 5000-7500 rpm. So I made a swirlpot under the bonnet with a Bosch motorsport pump. Now I run 7 bar fuel pressure @ 1.6 bar boost. 400-420 bhp. And @ 7000-7500 rpm the injectorcycle is 98 %.
          I guess that mean that the injectors are open 98 % time. At 5,4 bars the RS2 injectors should flow approx. 500 ml I recon. That´s 2.5 L pr. min.
          Correct me if I´m wrong.

          Søren S2
          Audi RS4 LO550

          BTG 8:08

          www.fredslunds.dk

          Comment


          • #6
            if they are operating at 98% duty cycle I think its time to change your injectors since they will get hot running at that sort of duty cycle.

            Greg
            Greg

            S2Forum.com Administrator & Webmaster

            '93 Coupe with a few tweeks

            Comment


            • #7
              Done 20000 miles now at that setting. I know that "they" say that 83-85 % i max for injectors but these great RS2 ones does it to the max. :-) And it is "beaten" daily.

              Søren S2
              Audi RS4 LO550

              BTG 8:08

              www.fredslunds.dk

              Comment

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