Urs6 Auto MTM 303 Ecu/Tcu Questions

[kingfishers2]

My partners father is restoring a Nogaro blue Urs6 Auto, following a test drive today we tried to connect vagcom but it wouldnt pull the codes, had a quick look at the ECU and found this.





Does anyone have any information about the package that would of made up the upgrade? i gather the turbo would have been above stock.
The current turbo is a standard k24... so it looks like it has gone missing at some point.
Would it be safe to run the MTM Tcu with a stock Ecu.

Any help would be good hes itching to drive the thing!

[pasbogdan]

Get the Ecu opened and check map sensor.Also read the eproms and check the sw,or get a tuner to have a look.
Or get a boost gauge and see the boost it does in 3'rd gear for example,starting at 2k rpm up to rev limit.
I assume it is just a stage 1 sw inside.Did mtm did something over 1.4 bar boost for stock 7000 turbine?

[kingfishers2]

Im pretty sure all the 300+ upgrades of the time sms/nothelle ect require a modified turbo, just cant see this running on a stock turbo for long.
ive opened the ecu it has modified chips ill post pics later.

[UrS4boy]

My partners father is restoring a Nogaro blue Urs6 Auto, following a test drive today we tried to connect vagcom but it wouldnt pull the codes, had a quick look at the ECU and found this. Does anyone have any information about the package that would of made up the upgrade? i gather the turbo would have been above stock. The current turbo is a standard k24... so it looks like it has gone missing at some point. Would it be safe to run the MTM Tcu with a stock Ecu. Any help would be good hes itching to drive the thing!

Just to confirm the OE AAN ECU PN as being for an UrS6 autobox:

"Our C4 UrS-cars have an AAN engine that is controlled by a Bosch Motronic ECU (computer). This AAN Motronic ECU has had a number of part numbers, depending on the location and year. Here is a list compiled by Dmitri ("prj") on the S2Forum (who has cracked most of the Motronic codes)

"AAN Motronic ECU Part Numbers:
551A early UrS4 with pseudo dizzy and 8k boost chip
551AA UrS4 non-immo, Europe and America
551B UrS4 same as 551AA, but auto
551C UrS6 incorporates all software updates from RS2, different codebase, more diagnostics
551D UrS6 same as 551C but auto (see photos at the end of this post)
551E UrS6 has a small tweak to fuel on cold start
551F UrS6 same as 551E but auto.

At 551C, when the immo got incorporated, the RS2 codebase was merged as well. Yes, all are still 230hp DIN, 227 hp SAE), but many routines are rewritten. For example the rev limiter routine is different, the software code area in the boost/knock control unit is 200 bytes longer and so on."

REF: http://forums.quattroworld.com/s4s6/msgs/21009.phtml

As for the 303 PS, I am not sure. The original MTM chip program for the AAN had at least four levels:

Stage 1 = stock 250 kPa (2.5 Bar) MAP sensor = about 260 hp
Stage 1+ = upgraded 300 kPa (3.0 Bar) MAP sensor = about 280 hp
Stage 2 = Stage 1+ plus the RS2 exhaust manifold. = something like 290 hp
Stage 3 = For RS2 exhaust manifold, turbo, injectors, MAF, etc. = 370 hp

Somewhat later, one of their dealers, Hoppen Motorsports (now defunct) changed the Stage definitions:

The new MTM "Stage 1" included a VMAP set to 3 Bar. This used to be called Stage 1+ (with a 3.0 Bar Bosch MAP sensor). The old Stage 1 kept the stock 2.5 Bar MAP with stock injectors for about 260 crank hp.

Their new "Stage 2" was basically an RS2 level but with stock AAN injectors: MTM engine management software - 3 bar VMAP sensor - KKK RS2 turbo - RS2 exhaust manifold - Bosch 110 valve - K&N filter. Hp was listed at 325.

Note that their Stage 3 is what we call RS2 spec, except that the indicated hp (335) is way down from what we think of as MTM Stage 3, i.e. 370 hp: MTM engine management software - 3 bar VMAP sensor - KKK RS2 turbo - RS2 exhaust manifold - RS2 fuel injectors - Bosch 110 valve - K&N filter. The Dahlback-sourced MTM chips that people like quattro20v run on their "RS2'd" AANs is supposed to produce 370 hp. (quattro20v has run 297 wheel hp on DynoDynamics dyno so this is believable). I have no idea why Hoppen, a long running MTM dealer, now offers this lower level as Stage 3.

303 PS rings a bell as as "Stage 2". Maybe stock K24-7000 but RS2 injectors? 280 hp is not the -7000's limit, it is the injectors limit.

[UrS4boy]

Another failed attempt at MTM Stages (these are more recent, not the originals), from Hoppen Motorsports:

Stage 1 MTM engine management software - 3 bar VMAP sensor
Bosch 110 valve 280 bhp 321 lbs/ft

Stage 2
MTM engine management software - 3 bar VMAP sensor - KKK RS2 turbo - RS2 exhaust manifold - Bosch 110 valve - K&N filter Pressure hoses 325 bhp 331 lbs/ft


Stage 3

MTM engine management software - 3 bar VMAP sensor - KKK RS2 turbo - RS2 exhaust manifold - RS2 fuel injectors - Bosch 110 valve - K&N filter 335 bhp 339 lbs/ft

REF: http://web.archive.org/web/200803120....S6.Tuning.htm

[UrS4boy]

One "303 PS" explanation

"Die 303 ps wurden bei mtm häufig eingetragen, auch wenn noch mehr gemacht wurde. Für ein wenig mehr ist eben kein gutachten vorhanden und dann nimmt man das was einigermaßen passt. Selbst die normale 303 ps variante mit lader und turbo hat mehr als diese Angabe, da zur Zeit als die Leistungskit entwickelt wurden die Wagen von der Versicherung auch nach Leistung eingestuft wurden. Der S2 Avant von SMS wurde teilweise auch mit 308 PS angeboten und da war auch nur Lader und Software geändert."

Translation (not perfect):

"The 303 ps were often registered at MTM, even if more was done. For a little more give no advice is available and then take what fits reasonably. Even the normal 303 HP version with turbo charger and has more than this figure, since the cars were developed at the time the performance kit has been classified by the insurance even after power. The S2 Avant SMS was partly also available with 308 PS and since only loaders and software was changed."

REF:http://www.audidrivers.de/viewtopic.php?t=7401&p=66011

[kingfishers2]

Thanks for the reply, looks like this 303 kit is not in there lineup at all then?!
Probably best going back to stock if the claimed figures are right.
Do you think this is safe to run on a stock turbo?

[UrS4boy]

MTM 303 PS definition

303 PS/222 kW
Wie 269 PS Version mit zusätzlich geändertem Abgasturbolader
6.590,00 DM
M-0S2 230 303
Arbeitsaufwand ca. 9,5 Std. 1.190,00 DM

Translated:

303 PS / 222 kW
As 269 PS version with additionally modified turbocharger
6590.00 DM
M-0S2 230 303
Workload approx 9.5 hrs. 1,190.00 DM

REF: Pg 5 of http://www.audidrivers.de/viewtopic.php?t=7401&p=66011

[kingfishers2]

Ok then looks like we are missing a turbo..

[UrS4boy]

Ok then looks like we are missing a turbo..

Based on that definition of the 303 PS program, it doesn't seem to mention the RS2 EM either. So basically Stage 1++ (maybe the elusive "Stage 2") (Not sure what the modified turbo would be).

[popdemonic]

Remember this car is automatic box.I don't think MTM would upgrade the bigger
Turbo on the car which shorten its life very soon.

[UrS4boy]

Remember this car is automatic box.I don't think MTM would upgrade the bigger Turbo on the car which shorten its life very soon.

Normally I might agree but since MTM also modified the tranmission control unit (TCU) at the same time, I can imagine that they figured out a way to limit torque and soften the shifts so the tranmission had a better chance of surviving the changes to the ECU.

[prj]

Normally I might agree but since MTM also modified the tranmission control unit (TCU) at the same time, I can imagine that they figured out a way to limit torque and soften the shifts so the tranmission had a better chance of surviving the changes to the ECU.

No such modifications are done in the trans.

[UrS4boy]

No such modifications are done in the trans.

You are correct. And I never said that the transmission itself was modified. I said that "MTM also modified the transmission control unit (TCU) at the same time, I can imagine that they figured out a way to limit torque and soften the shifts so the transmission had a better chance of surviving the changes to the ECU."

This would include feed back between the TCU and the ECU to modify engine timing (pull timing) and boost at the moment of a gear shift in the transmission. This would momentarily decrease horsepower and torque and, therefore, the literal impact on the auto transmission internals. Not as good as a standard but certainly a strategy to let the ZF 4HP18 live a bit longer.

IF MTM had just left the TCU alone, the way you probably did when you went Stage 1 or Stage 1+ back when, they would not have put their lovely MTM label on the TCU.

Sorry.

[Error404]

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