Water injection on a budget...

Collapse
X
 
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • Rusty
    Super Moderator
    • Jun 2004
    • 18953
    • Country: United Kingdom

    #1

    Water injection on a budget...

    Right, I know this might cause controversy as I'm actually looking at something a little different to the norm but here goes anyway.

    I know I am not the first person or indeed the last person to think, plan or do a water injectrion system but I quite fancy it!

    I've been thinking about combining my S2's inlet and some water for some time now. I've had a look over previous threads about IC sprays, read articles and had a think about it myself. I've also been quite shocked by the sheer cost of the Aquamist system! Further research has indicated that most of the cost of the system is the pump and whilst I've read the sales patter on the website, I can't see that such an expensive item is really required. Any pump that can handle the substance, flow rate and pressures required must be suitable.

    As I see it there are 2 options when it comes to using water:-
    1. Spray the IC to improve the heat transfer in the IC
    2. Spray water into the charge to reduce charge temp and combustion & EGT temps.

    The first is quite a simple job and can use the headlight washer pump and either some proprietary holed tubing or a number of nozzles to operate effectively. I will leave this for the moment as it is a day's work and about £50 to get working effectively with a boost switch and override switch to pre-empt boost, i.e. overtaking or WOT.

    The second option is what I would really like to achieve but rather than shelling out £300+ for the Aquamist sytem, I would like to achieve it for a more moderate sum of money. Some research on the internet has identified 4 similar kits from the states that use a different, cheaper, pump desingn and start at $200.


    http://www.alcohol-injection.com
    Discover race-winning nitrous systems, water-methanol injection, and fuel system components engineered for performance by Nitrous Express and Snow Performance.



    All seem to offer very similar products for the same price.

    Another option is to use a fuel pump or proprietary pump with nozzles, check valves etc. sourced from various sources to create my own system. This is not my favoured choice but I may be able to identify redundancy in any kit I buy and save money in the future. Fuel pumps acn be used but they don't last long so this might not be an option!

    From my research, it would appear that a volume of water equal to 10-15% of the fuel being added is the correct amount and that up to a 50% mix of methanol would increase octane, although I am unsure of the legalities of using this over here. The changie in fuel addition across the rev range would imply that a sequential or varable pressure system woul dbe favourable but careful choice of pressure and nozzle might enable a compromised system to work well.

    As far as I see it, providing the water is supplied at the correct time and rate, this is a winner. I will be looking into this over the next few weeks to try and identify my requirements on a 250-300bhp.

    Current I am after water injection above 0.6bar (to keep injecting to the red line) and I might look into expanding this to a sequential system (for the reasons above) at a later date if it proves successful and is worth further investment.
    Last edited by Rusty; 19 June 2007, 18:19.
    Cheers'en, AndyC
    1994 ABY Coupe - Projekt Alpinweiss
  • Keeper of The Kitten
    S2Forum Fiend
    • Dec 2003
    • 2317
    • Country: England

    #2
    You probably wouldn't get shot down for using methanol, it's reasonably clean and it does run cool. The two pitfalls I am aware of are it's ability to corrode some materials and it's capacity to absorb water when stored in a tank.
    Martin Cutting

    aka Keeper of "The Teutonic Kitten"

    It's not better than sex, but it runs it a close second.

    Comment

    • A80Avant
      S2Forum Obsessed
      • Sep 2005
      • 10873
      • Country: Greece

      #3
      i have bought the kit from snowperformance stage 2 and there is also needed a small valve depending on where you will place the injector.Also you should ask the ECU they give you with to be able to achieve pressures you are willing to work on.I bought it solely for the reduction of egts and nothing more,so im planning to fit it after a while.i also bought a new tank so that i can make sure nothing that will harm the pump is in there already.Fitment seems easy but it is something i will do later on,and not now,just to see the differences.

      Comment

      • A80Avant
        S2Forum Obsessed
        • Sep 2005
        • 10873
        • Country: Greece

        #4
        as for methanol usage,i too have some concerns about using it and corruption,but the windscreen fluids mostly use methanol as a substance in them and at their percentages will never harm any parts of the tubing used.Personally i will continue using the same methanol based fluids i use for the windscreen washers as the manufacturer of the snowperfomance unit says all other stuff in them do not harm the pump.So it is basically unionised water with some small bits of methanol in it.

        my only concern is the ability of the injector and its mounting to hold boost pressures up to 2 bar without losses...

        Comment

        • Greg_S
          Administrator
          • Jul 2003
          • 12431
          • Country: United Kingdom

          #5
          Im looking at getting this one at the moment too, I have the aquamist pump and a couple of other parts which I am buying to complete a kit before I can start installing and have been looking to source as many parts from a cheaper source as possible.
          Greg

          S2Forum.com Administrator & Webmaster

          '93 Coupe with a few tweeks

          Comment

          • Corey
            Banned
            • Sep 2003
            • 2793
            • Country: United Kingdom

            #6
            intelligent intercooler water spray

            The best one I have found, make sure you read all 5 parts
            Corey
            01636 822288

            Comment

            • Jamo
              Retired OG Mod
              • Mar 2004
              • 21750
              • Country: United Kingdom

              #7
              Originally posted by Corey
              intelligent intercooler water spray

              The best one I have found, make sure you read all 5 parts
              Good luck getting that working, I have that kit on my car, it wasn't so much water injection but a water tap.

              I've got to try and trace all the wiring etc and learn about it as there's no instructions availalbe for it

              Comment

              • Corey
                Banned
                • Sep 2003
                • 2793
                • Country: United Kingdom

                #8
                Originally posted by Jamo
                Good luck getting that working, I have that kit on my car, it wasn't so much water injection but a water tap.

                I've got to try and trace all the wiring etc and learn about it as there's no instructions availalbe for it
                really? tell me more
                Corey
                01636 822288

                Comment

                • Jamo
                  Retired OG Mod
                  • Mar 2004
                  • 21750
                  • Country: United Kingdom

                  #9
                  I'm not doubting the system just the way it was setup.

                  It's all on the forum by the previous owner. It was firing directly into the inlet of the turbo and the jet firing was like a thin water stream not an atomised spray.

                  I need to trace all the wiring move them to new locations and buy an atomised sprayer, pump etc

                  I've disconnected it for now and it's on the to do list.

                  Comment

                  • Corey
                    Banned
                    • Sep 2003
                    • 2793
                    • Country: United Kingdom

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Jamo
                    I'm not doubting the system just the way it was setup.

                    It's all on the forum by the previous owner. It was firing directly into the inlet of the turbo and the jet firing was like a thin water stream not an atomised spray.

                    I need to trace all the wiring move them to new locations and buy an atomised sprayer, pump etc

                    I've disconnected it for now and it's on the to do list.
                    Are you sure it's the same system as the link I posted sprays the water over the IC keeping that cool, not in the into the turbo.
                    Corey
                    01636 822288

                    Comment

                    • Jamo
                      Retired OG Mod
                      • Mar 2004
                      • 21750
                      • Country: United Kingdom

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Corey
                      Are you sure it's the same system as the link I posted sprays the water over the IC keeping that cool, not in the into the turbo.
                      Look at the last page and it tells you how to adapt it to be a water injection system.

                      Doug at MRC thought the same it couldn't be the same audspeed system as he had the same kit until he did some work on my car and confirmed it so.

                      Comment

                      • Corey
                        Banned
                        • Sep 2003
                        • 2793
                        • Country: United Kingdom

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Jamo
                        Look at the last page and it tells you how to adapt it to be a water injection system.

                        Doug at MRC thought the same it couldn't be the same audspeed system as he had the same kit until he did some work on my car and confirmed it so.
                        If it is the Audspeed system then you halfway there to having a decent intercooler spray, I would change it to the IC spray.
                        Corey
                        01636 822288

                        Comment

                        • Rusty
                          Super Moderator
                          • Jun 2004
                          • 18953
                          • Country: United Kingdom

                          #13
                          Having read some of the autospeed article, I took the following information from it:-
                          • The transfer of heat from the charge to the air is a 2 stage process.
                          • The IC absorbs the heat during the rapid rise in charge temperature.
                          • The IC is then cooled by the air during periods of cooler charge / reduced flow.
                          • This is not an instant process and prolonged periods of increased charge temp (boost) lead to high inefficiency of the IC system.
                          • Spraying water onto the IC at the same time that you increase chage temp does not decrease charge temperature immediately.
                          • Prempting the increase in charge temp by cooling the IC before the hot charge enters it leads to more heat transfer to the IC as there is a bigger temperature difference.


                          I would suggest that in a track situation where high boost is occuring a lot, a pressure triggered system would keep the IC wet and so on periods of braking and low throttle, the IC would be cooled. However, in a road situation where you use WOT rarely (to overtake or get up to speed or race!) a pressure triggered system would be less effective. An override would enable the driver to moisten the IC before requiring the improved efficiency of a cooled IC but is another distraction. In a standing start / sprint sitation, the application of vapourised water on the IC before starting would slightly cool the IC through heat absorbtion of the water and the subsequent low levels of evapouration but a lack of air flow would lead to low levels of evapouration. The addition of a fan on the IC would improve this situation but might decrease air flow in normal driving... A NO2 IC spray would be best in this situation but that's major expense. Dry ice anyone!
                          Cheers'en, AndyC
                          1994 ABY Coupe - Projekt Alpinweiss

                          Comment

                          • A80Avant
                            S2Forum Obsessed
                            • Sep 2005
                            • 10873
                            • Country: Greece

                            #14
                            actually i had found a system that sprays NO2 on the IC and it was not all that expensive,at least not more than a cheap WI.

                            the stage 2 system of the snowperfomance is what i choose mainly because with the small ECU provided,i can trigger the system to give me more or less flow depending on the boost pressure and the adaptation is linear.So i dont get an ON-OFF effect,rather than a linear rise and low in the flow of water in a waporised state.My ECU has its top limit on 25psi which means that after that it will only max out the level of water it can spray depending on the injector.

                            I was provided with 2 injectors,one that is for up to 400-450hp max and one for over 600hp the later providing a flood of water if needed.The water pump is also adjusted from 50 to 150psi which means that i can use the 600hp injector with less pump pressure to get my desired effect without flooding my engine,OR i can just use the pump to its full capacity(and this means better atomisation) and use the smaller injector.Since im not making an ECU program that will take under concideration the WI system,and im only using it for it's side effects (cleaner engine,sustained power during summer,smaller EGTs) i will use the smaller injector and aim for better atomisation,adjusting my WI ECU to turn on at 0.8bar of pressure and top it's flow on 1.8bar even if i add some overboost on the program.I wont care all that much as the amount of water sprayed will not make much difference after that.Topping at 1.8bar will be sufficient for the safety advantages im aiming for

                            Comment

                            • Rusty
                              Super Moderator
                              • Jun 2004
                              • 18953
                              • Country: United Kingdom

                              #15
                              Thanks PapVas, that is some useful info.
                              Cheers'en, AndyC
                              1994 ABY Coupe - Projekt Alpinweiss

                              Comment

                              Working...