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  • #16
    I think either the presence or absence of any vibration at this point is not germaine since that is simply a collateral symptom anyhow. The real hazard is a) possibly unpredictable handling & b) strut vulnerability i.e. replacement cost/time.

    I am not familiar with the UrS platform at all but IIRC, someone may have wrote that drilling the strut tube base right on centre in situ was on C-chassis blocked by some particular obstruction and perhaps in your case, I have no idea. I would not want to drill in situ; and I would not drill off centre.

    Perhaps what you may have to weigh drilling in situ against is, even if you haven't blown one or both dampers, are you confident you can dry out both sufficiently internally with new little holes now, that no further damage will accrue simply due to the water's possibly lingering presence?

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    • #17
      Mine's like this, very stiff with HnR springs and solid everything but drives spot on, even on b roads.
      Cheers'en, AndyC
      1994 ABY Coupe - Projekt Alpinweiss

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Lago Blue View Post
        I think either the presence or absence of any vibration at this point is not germaine since that is simply a collateral symptom anyhow. The real hazard is a) possibly unpredictable handling & b) strut vulnerability i.e. replacement cost/time.

        I am not familiar with the UrS platform at all but IIRC, someone may have wrote that drilling the strut tube base right on centre in situ was on C-chassis blocked by some particular obstruction and perhaps in your case, I have no idea. I would not want to drill in situ; and I would not drill off centre.

        Perhaps what you may have to weigh drilling in situ against is, even if you haven't blown one or both dampers, are you confident you can dry out both sufficiently internally with new little holes now, that no further damage will accrue simply due to the water's possibly lingering presence?
        It was just the case of "testing" if there is any liquid in there before stripping it all down, but you're right. I'll take the worse side off on one of my days off and see if there is any water in there and drill a hole at the bottom of the strut to future proof it, better check that before investigating harsh ride any further.
        '93 Audi 100 Avant - R.I.P
        '92 Audi UrS4 Avant - SOLD
        '93 Audi UrS4 Avant LPG

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Rusty View Post
          Mine's like this, very stiff with HnR springs and solid everything but drives spot on, even on b roads.
          Mine handles beautifully considering its 1750kg estate, but ride is unbearable especially when it's a daily driver. And i'm going through top mounts like socks which definitely indicates something isn't right.
          '93 Audi 100 Avant - R.I.P
          '92 Audi UrS4 Avant - SOLD
          '93 Audi UrS4 Avant LPG

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          • #20
            OK, as much as I don't want to I'll be taking both struts off this weekend. Just to confirm, I am looking for water in the strut or actual shock absorber?
            '93 Audi 100 Avant - R.I.P
            '92 Audi UrS4 Avant - SOLD
            '93 Audi UrS4 Avant LPG

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            • #21
              Hunker,

              Ha-hah! You should want to. You could think of it as perhaps a last best chance to prevent possibly worse damage, particularly if you are lucky and find one or both of your dampers is/are (hopefully) still salvageable.

              Q's: Do you have the particular Bilstein wrench sized to fit your gland-nuts? Is it in good shape, as removal torque often exceeds reco'd install torque, and these wrenches are fragile.

              Because your UrS-sized B6s will be vented by two generous sloping through-holes in the plated damper-base (see the photo of the two damper bases in the "Bilstein into MacPherson" thread), -most- of any water present in these larger OD dampers will fall out immediately when you remove the damper from the strut (if the damper is otherwise -not- compromised). However, you will want to thoroughly dry out both the damper and strut interiors post dis-assembly.

              On removal, you may see some of Bilstein's red assembly grease displaced from the damper's interior, but what you are hoping to -not- see is any damper fluid. I don't know what new damper fluid looks like, however used, it can be dark, perhaps due to mixing with water and/or road grime and oily, but very low viscosity. Any water present will hopefully be perfectly clear (mine was the 2nd time when I caught my 2nd pair in time). If no oil has been forced out of the dampers upper end into the strut bottom and/or is leaking from within the damper as you force it through its' full travel, you may want to then use some WD-40 internally to help you displace any possible remaining water that may be present; as part of drying them out inside.

              Once the dampers are dry internally, try compressing them by hand and try to judge if they operate easily, smoothly and fully; right down onto the internal stops. If no (dark?) Bilstein oil is seen; and they stroke smoothly, they may be just fine to still use.

              After strut-drilling and chips/swarf removal, you may want to review the detailed strut re-assembly notes in the above mentioned thread.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Lago Blue View Post
                Hunker,

                Ha-hah! You should want to. You could think of it as perhaps a last best chance to prevent possibly worse damage, particularly if you are lucky and find one or both of your dampers is/are (hopefully) still salvageable.

                Q's: Do you have the particular Bilstein wrench sized to fit your gland-nuts? Is it in good shape, as removal torque often exceeds reco'd install torque, and these wrenches are fragile.

                Because your UrS-sized B6s will be vented by two generous sloping through-holes in the plated damper-base (see the photo of the two damper bases in the "Bilstein into MacPherson" thread), -most- of any water present in these larger OD dampers will fall out immediately when you remove the damper from the strut (if the damper is otherwise -not- compromised). However, you will want to thoroughly dry out both the damper and strut interiors post dis-assembly.

                On removal, you may see some of Bilstein's red assembly grease displaced from the damper's interior, but what you are hoping to -not- see is any damper fluid. I don't know what new damper fluid looks like, however used, it can be dark, perhaps due to mixing with water and/or road grime and oily, but very low viscosity. Any water present will hopefully be perfectly clear (mine was the 2nd time when I caught my 2nd pair in time). If no oil has been forced out of the dampers upper end into the strut bottom and/or is leaking from within the damper as you force it through its' full travel, you may want to then use some WD-40 internally to help you displace any possible remaining water that may be present; as part of drying them out inside.

                Once the dampers are dry internally, try compressing them by hand and try to judge if they operate easily, smoothly and fully; right down onto the internal stops. If no (dark?) Bilstein oil is seen; and they stroke smoothly, they may be just fine to still use.

                After strut-drilling and chips/swarf removal, you may want to review the detailed strut re-assembly notes in the above mentioned thread.
                I hope to find water in there because then I don't have to look any further hopefully.

                ok gotcha, I do have home made tool for assembly but the nut isn't budging so thus it's all coming off and I can get a pipe wrench on the f***er. If I find water, and there is anything to see I'll make pictures for others for future reference.

                Just rather pissed off with Bilstein for doing such a s*** job.
                '93 Audi 100 Avant - R.I.P
                '92 Audi UrS4 Avant - SOLD
                '93 Audi UrS4 Avant LPG

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                • #23
                  As I suspected there is no water at all, not even a little bit. I've attached photo of how far both shockers go, don't know how far they're meant to go. It takes a lot of effort to get them fully compressed.
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                  This gallery has 1 photos.
                  '93 Audi 100 Avant - R.I.P
                  '92 Audi UrS4 Avant - SOLD
                  '93 Audi UrS4 Avant LPG

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                  • #24
                    a) That they are both dry is very good news! The drain-hole drillings will future-proof them as you say, from that issue.

                    b) That it "takes a lot of effort to get them fully compressed" is I think OK as these are for the C-class ("C" for Clydesdales?) don't forget. Yes they are harder to compress than the ones for the lighter cars but I don't think disproportionately so.

                    C4: base curb weight: 1610 kg / 3549 lbs, gross weight GVWR: 2160 kg / 4762 lbs
                    S2: base curb weight: 1420 kg / 3130 lbs, gross weight GVWR: 1880 kg / 4145 lbs

                    Although the UrS is already approx. 190Kg (13%) heavier BCW, it is also rated to involve up to 280Kg (15%) more GVWR, so I'd expect these dampers to be able to provide that much (15%) more resistance.

                    c) Further, regarding the force required to cycle the damper, I have a known serviceable UrS front damper (P/N: F4-P36-0370-HO, this is an early P/N for HDs a.k.a. B6s, since superceded, now perhaps 34-003701) and can cycle it between my hands as follows:

                    - holding the damper base with one hand against the side of my hip;
                    - then grasping the narrow shank above the chrome shaft's shoulder below the threaded top portion with the other hand;
                    - I can pull the top down towards me till full compression occurs and then while continuing to hold onto both ends, allow it to also release; &
                    - both the compression and release feel faultlessly smooth.

                    d) Re "how far they're meant to go", at full compression (as full as I can squish it) mine has approx 1.8" of polished chrome shaft left exposed. This distance appears to correspond to the length of the internal bump-stop (see circled in attached drwg.). The bump-stop, being of some sort of poly-foam perhaps, is somewhat compressible, so may add to the sensation that it takes a lot of effort to get to full travel.

                    e) If your two dampers operate similarly to the above, to one another and are not leaking, they are likely good to go.

                    f) Whatever root cause of your issue is, it is already likely far less expensive than having to replace two Bilsteins!

                    g) Can you say more about what you sense to be now different from previously? What do you hear/feel that has changed from before this issue arose?

                    h) I read that 60 series tires where the original fitment here, so one has to expect less comfort with a shorter sidewall. I view 60 series as a minimum requirement for any comfort on imperfect roads.

                    i) What is the current wisdom as to the most durable OEM top-mounts and/or is there a fix for same?


                    Bilstein x-section drwg with bump-stop circled.png

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Lago Blue View Post

                      - holding the damper base with one hand against the side of my hip;
                      - then grasping the narrow shank above the chrome shaft's shoulder below the threaded top portion with the other hand;
                      - I can pull the top down towards me till full compression occurs and then while continuing to hold onto both ends, allow it to also release; &
                      - both the compression and release feel faultlessly smooth.
                      It is impossible to compress the shock absorber by holding it between my hands, I have to push it against wooden block and apply all my weight to it to get it fully compressed.

                      To me personally they feel too stiff, and the fact that my top mounts are ripped apart in 8 month (4000 miles) show that something isn't right. They compress/extend smoothly too, there is no oil leaking they're in perfect condition they just don't seem to soak up bumps much.

                      I'm half tempted to buy normal shock absorbers and see if that does anything, because these are unbearable.
                      '93 Audi 100 Avant - R.I.P
                      '92 Audi UrS4 Avant - SOLD
                      '93 Audi UrS4 Avant LPG

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                      • #26
                        I just happen to have a pair of brand new b6 dampers and they are also too hard for me to compress without pushing against a wall but to me that is more about my strength than it being a fault. Dont forget they deal with the weight of a car and I know I can't squeeze that hard! Mine compress to the same degree as in your photo. Has the ride always been rock hard since fitting them or has it changed over time?

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by steve briance View Post
                          I just happen to have a pair of brand new b6 dampers and they are also too hard for me to compress without pushing against a wall but to me that is more about my strength than it being a fault. Dont forget they deal with the weight of a car and I know I can't squeeze that hard! Mine compress to the same degree as in your photo. Has the ride always been rock hard since fitting them or has it changed over time?
                          Ride has never been smooth really but I always put it down to the tyres (225 45 17 @ 2.4bar). So I've now gone down 16 inch route and it made no difference at all. It only recently started destroying my top mounts so that's why I started looking into this.

                          really can't see how people say 1BE paired with B6s makes a comfortable ride, it's atrocious.
                          '93 Audi 100 Avant - R.I.P
                          '92 Audi UrS4 Avant - SOLD
                          '93 Audi UrS4 Avant LPG

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                          • #28
                            a) What front tire pressure do you run with just you in the car?

                            b) Did you change brand of top-mounts from the ones which you think may have lasted longer previously?

                            c) Perhaps you notice a deteriorated ride more now with the torn mounts?

                            d) Is your perception of ride quality better briefly with new mounts?

                            e) On B-series cars there is (though not widely understood) some influence of A-arm bushing condition on NVH and top-mount longevity, could that be at play here? How old are your A-arm bushings; and are they OEM?

                            f) Do you also think the rear axle's ride is too harsh? If yes, I might be tempted to fit some used 1BA springs with fixing the mounts, as that might be a faster/cheaper change-out; and follows the lightly sprung/heavily damped path some have successfully trod.

                            g) Is there someone near to you with the same or similar and who likes their's; with whom you can compare rides?

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                            • #29
                              a) What front tire pressure do you run with just you in the car?

                              2.4bar (edit 2.2 bar)

                              b) Did you change brand of top-mounts from the ones which you think may have lasted longer previously?

                              Used to have FEBI but after they failed I paid for lemforder as they're best in business but same outcome.

                              c) Perhaps you notice a deteriorated ride more now with the torn mounts?

                              no big difference in ride quality between torn/new mounts just don't get a slight knock on harsher bumps.

                              d) Is your perception of ride quality better briefly with new mounts?

                              no

                              e) On B-series cars there is (though not widely understood) some influence of A-arm bushing condition on NVH and top-mount longevity, could that be at play here? How old are your A-arm bushings; and are they OEM?

                              all front end has been rebuilt fully thus I'm so obsessed with it being spot on. I've attached picture of control arm rear bush that I swapped out today for Lemforder, it hasn't failed yet.

                              f) Do you also think the rear axle's ride is too harsh? If yes, I might be tempted to fit some used 1BA springs with fixing the mounts, as that might be a faster/cheaper change-out; and follows the lightly sprung/heavily damped path some have successfully trod.

                              I can't really judge rear as all bushes are 220k miles/23 year old so once that's rebuilt I'll see, but rear doesn't seem to be that bad.

                              g) Is there someone near to you with the same or similar and who likes their's; with whom you can compare rides?

                              I don't unfortunately.
                              Last edited by hunker7; 25 August 2018, 19:01.
                              '93 Audi 100 Avant - R.I.P
                              '92 Audi UrS4 Avant - SOLD
                              '93 Audi UrS4 Avant LPG

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                              • #30
                                I'll order rubber subframe bushes and fit those in few weeks and see if that improves things.
                                '93 Audi 100 Avant - R.I.P
                                '92 Audi UrS4 Avant - SOLD
                                '93 Audi UrS4 Avant LPG

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