When is a top mount scrap ?

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  • rj scotty
    S2Forum Fiend
    • May 2006
    • 2195
    • Home: United Kingdom Current: England

    #1

    When is a top mount scrap ?

    Following on from my leaky koni/knocking noise thread, when is a top mount considered scrap ?

    The bearings on both my pro mounts have now come away from the rubber mount its self. Is this bad ?

    cheers

    rich
    sigpic
    "For what you spent on that you could have brought a new car"
    BUT I DON'T WANT A NEW CAR!

    1995 S2 Avant, Volcano Black
    1982 VW Golf Mk1, primer yellow, will be finished one day, maybe.
    2003 VW T4 long nose X pack, (has become project)
  • Rusty
    Super Moderator
    • Jun 2004
    • 18953
    • Country: United Kingdom

    #2
    Get in contact with Mance, he offers a lifetime warranty on them if you've registered

    It's the bearings on those that are important, need to see if there's any side to side slop, lateral slop should be minimal.
    Cheers'en, AndyC
    1994 ABY Coupe - Projekt Alpinweiss

    Comment

    • s2driveruk
      Super Moderator
      • Jul 2003
      • 12696
      • Country: England

      #3
      when is a top mount scrap? Usually within about 20 mins of fitting lol
      sigpic

      1992 3b S2 Coupe

      Comment

      • Acidburn
        S2Forum Obsessed
        • Jun 2007
        • 13459
        • Country: United Kingdom

        #4
        Originally posted by s2driveruk
        when is a top mount scrap? Usually within about 20 mins of fitting lol
        Remember seeing yours after we removed them, tbh they wasn't the worst i've seen.

        Comment

        • rj scotty
          S2Forum Fiend
          • May 2006
          • 2195
          • Home: United Kingdom Current: England

          #5
          Originally posted by Rusty
          Get in contact with Mance, he offers a lifetime warranty on them if you've registered

          It's the bearings on those that are important, need to see if there's any side to side slop, lateral slop should be minimal.
          The bearing is fine but the rubber ring (looks like a spigot ring) that fits around the bearing between the bearing and the top mount is f**ked.

          Dose this constitute scrap ?

          I have a standard set of mounts that appear to have life left in them I could use the pro mount bearing in those, but again the the rubber ring (looks like a spigot ring) would not be present and the bearing would pull out of the top mount with no resistance.

          Hope I explained that well, a picture would have told a thousand words

          cheers

          rich
          sigpic
          "For what you spent on that you could have brought a new car"
          BUT I DON'T WANT A NEW CAR!

          1995 S2 Avant, Volcano Black
          1982 VW Golf Mk1, primer yellow, will be finished one day, maybe.
          2003 VW T4 long nose X pack, (has become project)

          Comment

          • Rusty
            Super Moderator
            • Jun 2004
            • 18953
            • Country: United Kingdom

            #6
            I think that ring was replaced by a metal ring. As I said, contact Mance and take some detailed pics, he was very helpful when I had dealings with him, I hope you find the same service

            Here's mine:-
            Attached Files
            Cheers'en, AndyC
            1994 ABY Coupe - Projekt Alpinweiss

            Comment

            • s2_bo
              S2Forum Zealot
              • Oct 2005
              • 6067
              • Home: United Kingdom Current: France

              #7
              You can send them back and mance rebuilds them. I have done this before.. Very good service really.

              Also, the race versions, that were never sold by quatronics and are even better as they have a thicker steel retainer. I have them on mine, they cost more but are well worth it imo..
              91 S2 coupé - RIP
              98 S8 - Luxury barge

              Comment

              • rj scotty
                S2Forum Fiend
                • May 2006
                • 2195
                • Home: United Kingdom Current: England

                #8
                Dose anybody have contact detail for Mance ?

                cheers

                rich
                sigpic
                "For what you spent on that you could have brought a new car"
                BUT I DON'T WANT A NEW CAR!

                1995 S2 Avant, Volcano Black
                1982 VW Golf Mk1, primer yellow, will be finished one day, maybe.
                2003 VW T4 long nose X pack, (has become project)

                Comment

                • s2_bo
                  S2Forum Zealot
                  • Oct 2005
                  • 6067
                  • Home: United Kingdom Current: France

                  #9
                  Ill pm them to you, he doesnt want them public.
                  91 S2 coupé - RIP
                  98 S8 - Luxury barge

                  Comment

                  • Phil Payne
                    S2Forum Addict
                    • Jul 2009
                    • 328
                    • Country: United Kingdom

                    #10
                    Originally posted by rj scotty
                    Following on from my leaky koni/knocking noise thread, when is a top mount considered scrap ?
                    I chuckled about the "twenty minutes" answer. Yeah, sometimes.

                    Basically - if you jack the car, take the wheel off and then neutrally load the strut with a jack under the ball joint ..

                    If you then pull and push the strut and achieve movement at the top (shove a 6mm or 7mm long good Allen key [Beargrip?] in as an extended handle) - something is wrong. In my experience it's actually more likely to be an incorrectly torqued spring retaining nut or cap nut. But by the time you're in there to fix that, a new top mount is a no-brainer.

                    My own definition of fooked? Same as a clutch release bearing - if it's quicker to sweep it up than pick it up, it's fooked.

                    Comment

                    • macspring
                      S2Forum Zealot
                      • Mar 2005
                      • 6371
                      • Home: Ireland Current: Wallis & Futuna

                      #11
                      Food for thought,

                      The design of the standard top mounts is not great, I'm sure on later say B7 or Golfs etc. there a better design if any mechanic is familiar with all of the newer design ones for VAG cars or any others they might suggest a possibility for further investigation.

                      Recall an acquaintance of mine put Golf Mk 4 front top mounts on the front of his Mk 1 Golf 1.8T, may have had to use a welder though, but no play was the result, but with plenty of OEM factory compliance for a heavier Mk 4, but not too harsh with a lighter Mk 1. Alloy track Mk 1 top mounts are too hard for the road IMO.

                      He changed the rear stub axle part that's welded to the rear axle beam and put on the complete Mk 4 bearings and brakes, he said it was a much better design than sticking on Mk 2 Golf discs as would be the normal upgrade.

                      Admittedly the only problem for most of us is that he can weld and we can't, but as I say, food for thought.

                      There is definitely available and rewarding a market for a better top mount for all of the B4s still in use, not just S2s or RS22.

                      Kind regards to all.

                      Comment

                      • VAP
                        S2Forum Buff
                        • Oct 2009
                        • 26
                        • Country: United States

                        #12
                        I'm sorry you're having an issue with my Pro-mounts. Let me start off by sayng that mount/bearing separation does not, in and of itself constitute failure althugh I'm happy to correct that issue. The spherical bearings are held captive to the mount under-side via a Polyamide hot-melt adhesive just to keep them together during shipping/handling. Much the same way many Sachs OEM mounts come oft-times with the thrust bearing separate from the mount. Once a Pro-Mount is installed its the captive nut at the top of the strut assembly keeps constant pressure on the mount/bearing assembly tightly against the upper spring perch and the struts upper threaded shaft and strut "shoulder" immediately below it. In fact the only way I can conceive the spherical bearing separating from the mount is "if" that nut were to loosen and the car driven that way for "X" amount of miles. As long as the cupped washer, Pro-Mount assembly, upper spring perch and strut tower shulder are properly torqued to a solid "stack assembly" separation cannot occur.

                        You cannot swap the spherical bearing from a Pro-Mount into an OEM strut mount as the Pro-Mounts are machined with a larger thru-bore that features a specific taper at the top side of the bore to allow the threaded strut shaft, internal spherical bearing sleeve, bearing and the cupped washer to deflect axially/radially/orbitally. Trying to fit that spherical bearing into an OEM Sachs/Boge strut mount is a recipe for disaster as it will seize the bearing and likely snap the threaded stems off the strut near their base the first time the steering wheel is turned under load, as when parked and turning the steering wheel left or right.


                        All Pro-Mounts are guaranteed for life to the "original" purchaser. All I need to see is a picture of your original sales receipt from "you-know-who' if you purchased them there or your name & date you purchased them from me and I'll look up the Paypal invoice.

                        Once original ownership is confirmed, send them off to me. I'll completely go over & thru them to determine if repair or replacement is the way to go and cover return shipping to you. And your lifetime warranty begins anew on the repaired/replacement pair!

                        Merry Christmas England!

                        Comment

                        • s2_bo
                          S2Forum Zealot
                          • Oct 2005
                          • 6067
                          • Home: United Kingdom Current: France

                          #13
                          Nice to see you on here Mance,
                          Merry Christmas to you too.
                          91 S2 coupé - RIP
                          98 S8 - Luxury barge

                          Comment

                          • rj scotty
                            S2Forum Fiend
                            • May 2006
                            • 2195
                            • Home: United Kingdom Current: England

                            #14
                            Merry Christmas sir

                            The receipt has been located

                            These where shipped to me by "you know who" without the cupped washer you speak off, I don't know if this makes a difference ?

                            I will switch back to stock mounts over the next day or so and drop you an email with some pictures.

                            The adhesive you mention forms a shape similar to a spigot ring and has gone all hard and brittle.

                            No guarantee this is the source of my knocking noise though, I'm beginning to think not now

                            We shall see

                            Merry Christmas once again, nice to see you on the forum


                            cheers

                            rich
                            sigpic
                            "For what you spent on that you could have brought a new car"
                            BUT I DON'T WANT A NEW CAR!

                            1995 S2 Avant, Volcano Black
                            1982 VW Golf Mk1, primer yellow, will be finished one day, maybe.
                            2003 VW T4 long nose X pack, (has become project)

                            Comment

                            • VAP
                              S2Forum Buff
                              • Oct 2009
                              • 26
                              • Country: United States

                              #15
                              Perfect timing on my part. I just peeked in and you had just responded.

                              Ok,the "cupped" washer I spoke of is nothng more than the OEM washer that sits atop the strut towers and prevents the struts from falling out of the strut tower if the car were to get airborn. They come with a hard plastic surround-ring and are cadmium plated originally buet many rust and/or lose that plastic ring that the upper strut nut sits in. They aren't provided with the Pro-Mount kit as they are already there courtesy of Audi and re-installed with any/all strut mount swaps, changes or upgrades.

                              To date I've never warrantied a spherical bearing and if there's a "knocking" sound I'm inclined to think that perhaps the strut nut came loose within the cupped washer that is holding the cupped washer, strut mount, spring perch and threaded strut shaft together. As I mentioned earlier that would also be the prime suspect in the spherical bearing pulling away from its fixed/adhered position in the mount under-side. If that assembly is/was loose it would certainly cause a knocking noise as that looseness would result in a gap between bearing, strut mount, washer and upper spring perch. Then, upon suspension compression/rebound the knock would originate as that gap opens/closes and resonates thru the chassis via the strut tower. Re-tightening this assembly "might" cure the issue. If the spherical bearing is at-fault it can only be if the ball within the race is so loose that you could hold the spherical race between your thumb and forefinger and shake it up/down/left/right and hear or feel the ball "knocking" within the race. If it knocks thats it, if no knocking/tapping occurs then the knock is originating elsewhere and the bearing is sound.

                              Hope this helps and Thanks guys for being so gracious, friendly & welcoming!

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