Top Mount installations compared

[A80Avant]

Yes, i have made my choise as well. OEM and learn how to dismantle the front acxel on my parking space to be able to replace them on my own. Apparently there is still no viable long term solution.

Thanks Andy and Andy!

[s2_wot]

I got 4 x OEM ones the other day too. About €25 each.

Is there anybody on this forum using the mount savers? These are the little inserts that sit above the OEM top mount and fill the void thus preventing the top mount from collapsing.

[Rusty]

I think a few people use them as a solution at the rear. They cannot be used on the voidless 034 or Meyle ones though, for obvious reasons.

Ideally, you'd have a solid mount that was attached to the car, as per the solid mounts but with an insulating layer between it and the body, thus giving the great strut location and positive steering of a solid mount but with minimal increase in NVH. I've often looked at solutions like this but the limiting factor is batch size and the affect that this has on a) price and 2) material selection for the insulator. There's also the cost of getting proper bearings in there, or the ability to fit cheaper bearings and accept a service life. If there was a market for say 100 sets at £100 a set, then you might start to get somewhere... but that's some ask.

[A80Avant]

i think bambridge may have something in the future (or i hope)

[s2_wot]

Well the pro mount is neither indestructable as proved above nor is it a cheap solution. For a road going car that you would just like to be consistent (albeit not ideal world) the mount saver type solution sounds good.

I sent vap a pm and also an email so hopefully sometime when he's better he'll have time to sell me some of them. I recall that he had some dealings with :corey: so maybe he doesn't want to ship outside northern America, who knows.

That said the technically minded on this forum have solved loads of issues to date, why wouldn't we get Kev to machine up some delrin as an insert for the top of the OEM mount and pump them out.

No need for a lifetime warranty or anything like that.

Mcandmar showed me some of his collection of broken top mounts from the last 7-8 years. It appears to me that availability of a mount saver (if available) or similar would appeal to many rather than just a few.

[bikerjim]

Ok so I have given this a little thought (as you will tell in a min, it is only a little one lol), I have seen this method used on gearbox mounts in the past somewhere so its not all bonkers
How about filling the void where the mount saver would go with Sikaflex?

[Lago Blue]

What does strut-mount failure look and sound like?

Sonic,

What exactly failed on the ones you had that Mance replaced?

Rusty,

I have to agree with what Mance has said previously, that the bearings separating from the OE mount does not constitute failure, as function is not affected. Assembled and installed, there'd be no additional clearance/movement/noise. Audi OEM's are sometimes sold with the bearing separate. The whole assembly is torqued together on installation, held by the top nut. IIRC, due to the guarantee Mance puts on Pro-Mounts, he wanted some sort of anti-tamper seal on them. The seal itself is not mission-critical.

I'd also add that that clearly there are several other sets of Pro-Mounts in Britain judging by the folks who have written in, so others are getting them; and that the subsequent replacement of both Sonic's and Rusty's above is a feature that few other top-monts share. How much is that worth?

That the above sounds a lot like a Bilstein level of customer service certainly impresses me, how bout you?

If I ever do truly break mine, and by break I mean some failure that does affect function such as separation of the OEM rubber/steel assembly itself, I'm going to buy a second set first; and only then send mine back to Mance. That's what I think of them.

But failing that, I fully expect that I will eventually develop vertical clearance in the lined spherical bearing itself over time that I feel is excessive (like the normal wear that occurs on any other aircraft bearing on the planet) and I will ask if he can replace them, at my cost. Who knows, new ones might be cheaper than trying to re-cycle mine, but I'll still ask.

Rusty raises an excellent point, and that is price point. What is possible at target cost. I think Mance once made some totally synthetic mounts that weren't a whole lot "better"; except expensive.

Bikerjim,

I too have filled mount voids in other applications however, for the price of a container of Sikaflex, I think Mount-Savers compare rather well. But you never know, it's by folks on forum's like this that better widgets are wrought!

Rusty,

I do believe the Tim O'neil rally school in New Hampshire at least initially used just the Mount-Savers on the rear; and the front. This may have been until Pro-Mounts came along, I don't know.

http://forums.audiworld.com/showthre...t=tim+O%27neil

[Sonic]

Sonic,

What exactly failed on the ones you had that Mance replaced?

Quoted - "the original Mount-Savers used in this particular pair of Pro-Mounts has fractured and broken into several pieces"

[Lago Blue]

Sonic,

Please pardon my questions, a search here did not yield your quoted article.

- Did you remove them due to symptoms (if so what?), or discover on removal?

- Do you think there was a particular incident which may have broken them?

- Did the Pro-Mounts themselves survive?

- Where they Mount-Saver I's, or II's?

- What height of Mount-Saver's were they?

- What spring/shock combo were you running?

Thanks in advance.

[VAP]

I want to jump in here, not because I'm up for it but because I feel I need to step in. Yes, I have emails from several here but I'm simply not up to responding at present and for perhaps as long as 2-3 more weeks. Hey, bitch at the US Army, their surgical mesh 42 years ago and my being drafted, sent to Viet Nam/Laos and Cambodia. Not MY fault and no ones more PO'd about it than me!

Firstly and to-date there has NEVER been a "proper" failed set of Pro-Mounts returned to me. Ever! And no excepetion to that statement! Yes, I hve recevied a handful, maybe 4 pair total for inspection since 2007. But never once has the modified OEM strut mount used as the Pro-Mount foundation failed even mildly or catastrohically! Mount-Saver 1's had a couple failures but as its namesake would indicate it is designed to save the actual "strut-mount/Pro-Mount" which it did in spades and unfortunately, at its own demise. Mount-Saver II's which are the only MS available for the past couple years have enjoyed the same failure rate as Pro-Mounts, ie; nada, zero, zilch, bupkus.

Two or three Pro-Mounts have also suffered a spherical bearing failure but again, no damage to the Pro-Mount Sachs/Boge strut mount sub-structure. And every time it was only "one" of the spherical bearings in a "paired" set, never both! However, I always replace BOTH bearings or BOTH Pro-Mounts as a professional courtesy! And 9-times-outta-ten I will simply opt to replace both Pro-Mounts rather than "just" the spherical bearings as I already have Pro-Mounts pre-made and its faster, more efficent for me to do that rather than R&R spherical bearings and replace Mount-Savers in a Pro-Mount mated pair. Considering the cost/expense of European and/or Pacific Rim customers returning their Pro-Mounts to me in the US its simply a good-will gesture on my part and the way I prefer to conduct business, especially for those that have to spend so much returning Pro-Mounts to me for inspection via international shipping. I ALWAYS return better quality than I receive! I have accepted Pro-Mounts back from the UK and members of this forum for free warranty repair/replacement that were clearly and admittedly not from original purchasers with ANY legitimate rights to "lifetime warranty repair/replacement." There's two occasions where I've even Paypal'd money to people from this forum to purchase new Sachs/Boge OEM srut mounts to put in their car temporarily while they sent their Pro-Mounts to me and couldn't afford both return shipping and temporary strut mounts! I'm not obligated in ANY way to do that! If a value-statement needs to be made about Pro-Mounts lets allow those considerations, coupled with their accompanying lack of failures to be seen as part of the "whole picture." Tho I'll be the 1st to admit even a "wounded" Pro-Mount is just as "out-of-the-war" (useable service) as a dead Pro-Mount I've yet to see one so catastrophically failed it couldn't be put right again. In fact, where do you guys think the Pro-Mounts I receive for inspection go when I opt to "replace" yours rather than repair them? Yep, sold as "used" here in the US and again with a 100% lifetime replacement warranty to the original purchaser! Interesting snippet of trivia; "used" Pro-Mounts have an even lower rate of failure then new Pro-Mounts! Its a fact! I've never once gotten a "sold-as-used" Pro-Mount back for inspection or replacement in almost 4 years!!

Biggest failures to-date are related to people "lubricating" the PTFE-lined sphericals which is a big, and I do mean huge-Huge-H-U-G-E no-no, EVER! Anything with petroleum distillates like WD-40 et al or silicone aerosols cause the polyester mesh reinforced PTFE liners within the spherical to separate from the PTFE and "squish" or migrate out of the spherical race which starts as a dull "clunk" type sound then escalates to "knocking" and can seize up altogether! Some of those lubricants have been so volatile as to melt/dissolve the Mount-Saver inserts and cause rubber inside the Pro-Mount to separate/delaminate from its internal steel cage reinforcement. This was the one thing that was mentioned early on as a "warraanty-breaker" but since I was selling this "thru" someone else in the UK I've never declined anyone from warranty or free replacement since I had no control over "complete disclosure" to the purchaser/end user. Far as I know I've never instilled a bad feeling over ANY warranty claim or repair. And feel I'm as close to having the most bullet-proof strut mount design available today. Almost 6 years without a catastrophic mount failure given what I started with aint bad!

One last snippet regarding Pro-Mounts and the perception that having the spherical or even the thrust bearing in OEM units separating from the mount and constituting a strut mount failure. It just isn't so! As the poster above has explained and I have attempted to explain and had those explanations fall on deaf ears; the bearings regardless if OEM thrust or Pro-Mount sphericals are not tenaciously or otherwise permanently adhered to the lower steel cup either when purchased from Boge/Sachs direct or when purchased as Pro-Mounts from me. The former bearings simply use a "dimpled/press" fit which can easily be separated by lightly tapping. The Pro-Mounts conversely use a Polyamide hot glue adhesive. Both methods are specifically designed for one purpose ONLY! To allow the OEM mount and/of Pro-Mount to simply be "handled" and slipped into place "with one hand" during installation into the chassis without falling apart and requiring mutiple hands. Then when installed rely on the OEM slotted nut and the upper strut mounting nut to hold the assembly in place and to the strut on OEM strut mounts. The Pro-Mounts totally eliminate the use of the OEM slotted nut and relies solely on the upper strut mounting nut to hold the assembled Pro-Mount/strut assembly together when installed in the chassis. Truth be known you can assemble either an OEM mount or Pro-Mount into the car. Tighten the slotted nut and/or upper strut nut which will pull the ENTIRE strut mount "stack assembly" together just as if it were pressed-in from Boge or hot-glued by me. Both Sachs/Boge and I install bearings in OEM or Pro-Mounts simply as a "convenience" done for the purchaser... nothing more!

I'm sorry but this is about all I'm capable of addressing in one post at this point in time. And I'm sure there will be follow-up questions but cut me some slack on getting to those. It might be tomorrow, it could be a few weeks or somewhere in between. I'm doing the best I can with the hand I've been dealt right now.

[s2_wot]

VAP get well soon. Please let us know when you're fighting fit again.

If I understand correctly the products we can consider from you are:

"Mount Saver II" which fills the void between the top of top mount (OEM only) and the strut tower thus preventing the mount from collapsing.

And

"Pro-Mount" which incorporates the "Mount Saver II" and as a package replaces the
complete top mount.

Is there anything that will clean / lubricate the mounts if required for instance in the case that mud / dirt / road salt makes it's way in there?

Again get well soon and if you get time at some stage to further contribute on here it will be appreciated.

[VAP]

Shane-

Thank you and yes, those are the items I design, make and/or sell publicly. Since a Teflon lined spherical bearing is a lifetime "sealed & self-lubricated" bearing there's no need for any additional lubricant or cleaning... EVER!. Totally defeats the purpose of a PTFE spherical bearing! If you like the work, want bearings you can clean and lubricate frequently ask me to make you a set of Pro-Mounts without PTFE spherical bearings! I'm happy to do that and can save you some money but no lifetime replacement warranty can be offered. But they will keep you on your toes maintenance-wise for a long time to come dealing with the noise when they dry out. Additionally the PTFE liner serves as a seal that prevents you introducing lubricant into the bearing race insuring when you try it that the lubricant just sits on the surface FOREVER, never soaks into the bearing and goes to work dissolving and separating the PTFE mesh, Mount-Saver as well as the OEM mount rubber from its underlying steel cage. That same seal is also what prevents water, salt, dirt, silica and/or other solid/soluble debris migrating into the bearing. If the bearing is "sealed" and cannot be disassembled, how exactly do you propose getting some lubricating/cleaning media inside to clean it? If there's no "air-space" between the PTFE liner, its outer bearing race or inner spherical ball and you were successfu getting lubricant in how do you go about getting that same lubricant, now contaminated with dirt out of the bearing? The simple answer is "you don't" thats why its Teflon, sealed/lubricated for life and not a serviceable, non-lined all metal spherical bearing. Funny thing is everyone tries to clean/lube the sphericals from the engine bay by spraying some lubricating product around the spherical ball. Yet they never go up under the car where all the HEAVY concentration of dirts, salt etc is. Why is it peole always want to lubricate what is already the "clean" top side of the bearing and not the dirty, bottom side? Not that it makes any difference since both sides are sealed but I've always found it curious ;-) Teflon is the lubricant AND the seal. Teflon does not work better or more efficiently when greased or oiled! In fact it works far FAR less efficiently if greased/oiled!

Here's a little test: Pour water thru the strut tower bores into the installed front strut mounts of any small chassis Audi and watch it drain right thru. Now fill an installed Pro-Mount with water... it'll NEVER drain! It will evaporate over time but it won't spill out the bottom of the Pro-Mount the same way it will with an OEM or ANY other rubber mount including ALL those mentioned in this thread!

[Error404]

Mance what is the up-to-date price is for a pair of your pro-mounts inc shipping to the UK?

[VAP]

Pro-Mounts run $225 per pair. Mount-Saver II's run $45 if old separately but are included with Pro-Mounts. Shipping would be based on method chosen, speed and area-dependent. USPS is the most cost-effective but even that can run from a low of $20-$25 to a high of about $70 depending on delivery speed required and area. I do not mark up shipping rates nor charge for things like "handling" etc. Actual postage charged is what will show up at your place marked on the outside ofthe box by the shipper chosen!

[Sonic]

Mance, first of all i'm sorry to hear that you're having health problems. I hope that you get well soon.

Thank you for taking the time to respond on here, i know it's much appreciated from all.

Sonic,

Please pardon my questions, a search here did not yield your quoted article.

Not a problem, you'll have to excuse my ignorance though as i'm far from an expert when it comes to suspension and top-mount assemblies, so most of the information i have is from 3rd parties.

Did you remove them due to symptoms (if so what?), or discover on removal?

The ride was crashy, but discovered on removal. Someone pointed out to me at a s2forum meet that they top mounts didn't look right, so i had a mechanic inspect them.

Do you think there was a particular incident which may have broken them?

Not from memory, but there may well have been. As said, the suspension set-up was quite crashy and very hard. I fully expect that a single "big" incident hitting a pothole or similar would have caused the failure.

Only 1 of the topmounts had a problem. Not both.

Did the Pro-Mounts themselves survive?

I've just had a read through all of the emails, and from what i understand the pro-mount section did survive, it was just the mount-saver that gave way.

Here is the report quoted in full (original sent to s2_bo by Mance's son who kindly fulfilled the warranty request) -

1. Both Sachs/Boge OEM strut mounts are structurally perfect with no visible or measured damage of any kind. Easily within 1% of new strut mount specifications. No splitting of either strut mounts inner support ring which was one of my dad's concerns and what he wanted me to inspect & test for very closely.

2. One of the original Mount-Savers used in this particular pair of Pro-Mounts has fractured and broken into several pieces tho I'm unable to determine if it came from the right or left side of the vehicle. I have never seen this before and when we were testing these years ago we couldn't fracture or break them even with a sledge hammer pounding them against concrete when the urethane insert was frozen to -20 degrees fahrenheit. We could flatten or distort them but could never break them. I'm saving those pieces for my dad to check out upon his return. But the failed mount-saver has done it's primary job of saving the Pro-Mount from any damage or measurable collapse. The other mount-saver had taken an appropriate set for its age but showed no indication of fracturing or breaking.

3. Both spherical bearings were in great shape upon initial inspection but after ultrasonic cleaning one is slightly looser than the other. I'm going to recommend to my dad that both sphericals be replaced at this point. Both could continue to be used for years and years with no perceptible noise or issue but I'm sure my dad will recommend new ones since they're here.

The sentence in bold is quite important i think, as it shows that the mount-saver did what it was designed to do.

Also quoted for those in any doubt -

If mounts were made stronger, without a fail-safe indicator they could conceivably blow thru the strut towers in the engine bay and on up, thru the hood and that suspension corner would go into total/complete collapse, creating an extremely dangerous situation and a fretfully expensive repair bill affecting both sides of front suspension as well as sub-frame damage.

Where they Mount-Saver I's, or II's?

I's

What height of Mount-Saver's were they?

Unsure.

What spring/shock combo were you running?

Bilsteins with H&R's.

This set-up was ridiculously hard on the car, and i have since changed it for adjustable koni's with the H&R's.

This has still been too stiff, so it's now running the koni's with stock springs.

I'd also like to say that i most definitely WOULD have replaced the pro-mounts with another set had i not been in a rush to get the car back together.

If it was clear how to order a set, i'd probably get another one now as i am convinced by the quality of their design and engineering.

I also have a set of mount-savers running on the rear, which have done ~40k miles and still look as good as they did the day they were fitted.