Advise/technical data regarding KW suspension

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  • le mans
    S2Forum Enthusiast
    • Nov 2013
    • 165
    • Country: New Zealand

    #1

    Advise/technical data regarding KW suspension

    Last December I had KW V3 suspension fitted to my RS2. I imported the kit new via the UK.

    As I live in NZ there is a requirement for adjustable suspension to be 'certified' by the LVVTA (Low Volume Vehicle Testing Association) before being considered safe and legal for road use. The local law/rules do not recognize foreign approvals eg TUV.

    In the case of adjustable suspension,this is usually quite straight forward to certify, however I have hit a huge speed bump and as things stand it is likely that my very expensive KW suspension kit will not be approved. Why you may well ask? Well the design of the B4 suspension incorporates the steering arm attached to the front strut housing. The LVVTA has taken the position that aftermarket struts that incorporate welded steering arms are high risk (failure case considered safety critical) and their default position is to reject these aftermarket components, regardless of what overseas accreditation they have. You can read the background document here:


    Here is a photo of the front suspension on my RS2 showing the KW steering arm:


    The LVVTA Technical Advisory Committee will consider a submission on March 3 for the approval of this suspension for legal road use on my car. The certifier dealing with my submission has received informal advise from his colleagues that most likely it will be rejected.

    Bear in mind I have been hanging in limbo since December when I first found out about this problem and have been grappling with the fact I may have chucked away a large sum of cash.

    I am looking for advise and in particular any info on the technical side of manufacturing these KW components that could help support my submission to get this kit approved for NZ. I am aware of the TUV approval as well as KW's ISO accreditation and have given this information to the certifier already. Unfortunately it doesn't seem to carry much weight down here - go figure.

    If anyone can help (maybe a KW distributer on this forum) it would be hugely appreciated. I'm honesty not sure if there is any possibility of turning the tide, which seems to be very much against me at the moment. Feel free to PM me.

    For reference here is the relevant wording from the linked LVVTA info sheet:

    "Step 1 – Technical Validation (Option 2 ‐ Provision of technical information):
    The following technical information is to be sourced from the component manufacturer and provided to LVVTA in confidence. The technical information will establish:
    • whether the component is a casting or a forging; and
    • full material specifications for the cast/forged component and tube; and
    • hardness values/readings for the forged/cast component, the tube, the weld area, and the heat affected zones at 1 mm from toe of the weld on the forging/casting; and
    • welding processes (including pre and post heat treating details).
    Step 2 – Quality Control:
    In order to ensure ongoing conformity of production of components, the LVV Certifier must obtain, and provide to LVVTA in confidence:
    • a statement from the component manufacturer, in English, relating directly to its manufacturing and quality control processes for the components in question, giving details and ongoing confirmation of conformance to an ISO or similar internationally‐recognised quality assurance accreditation programme; and
    • verification or confirmation of the manufacturer’s conformance to the ISO or similar organisation from that accreditation organisation, as a double‐checking process to prevent fraudulent activity."


    As an aside, is there any anecdotal evidence people can share as to the reliability or otherwise of the KW steering arm in this application?

    Cheers
  • macspring
    S2Forum Zealot
    • Mar 2005
    • 6371
    • Home: Ireland Current: Wallis & Futuna

    #2
    No help, to you but I feel your grief, what a pita when it has TUV approval.

    Good luck fighting the good fight, don't let them grind you down.




    Comment

    • varia
      S2Forum Maniac
      • Mar 2009
      • 821
      • Current: United States

      #3
      Im not sure if I like New Zealand anymore.
      Seems to me those paper pusher bureaucrats dont have better things to do.
      Install it, then drive it, then call it a day
      At the annual inspection, put the back the old one
      sigpic

      Comment

      • Error404
        Super Moderator
        • Mar 2007
        • 19789
        • Country: United Kingdom

        #4
        Have they seen the OEM strut? That is welded and made from far, far thinner stock. Can't believe they don't recognise TUV approval
        Panthero Coupé quattro 20vt
        Indigo ABY coupé
        Imola B6 S4 Avant

        Comment

        • caterpillar
          S2Forum Fiend
          • Jun 2004
          • 2480

          #5
          http://www.kw-suspensions.eu/int/ tryed this.. contact/ mail them....and give they the storry....

          Comment

          • Monkeymagic
            S2Forum Possessed
            • Mar 2012
            • 3419
            • Country: England

            #6
            I agree with alex and the originals rust and fail in this area. Stainless steel is never going to do that.

            Comment

            • Mr.Crossfire
              S2Forum Enthusiast
              • Feb 2006
              • 145
              • Country: Finland

              #7
              That is certainly information only KW themselves can provide you. As being a big international company, I presume they have the quality documents of their processes in order, but another story is that will they be giving them out to a single customer.

              One thing is for sure, there are no cast/forged components in the KW strut, but of course the question is how to verify that to your officials.

              And I thought Finnish bureaucrats were the worst...

              Comment

              • le mans
                S2Forum Enthusiast
                • Nov 2013
                • 165
                • Country: New Zealand

                #8
                Originally posted by Mr.Crossfire
                One thing is for sure, there are no cast/forged components in the KW strut

                Any chance of elaborating on the above? I'm not flash on this subject. It could be useful if I could give an explanation to the guy handling my TAC submission.

                I will try to contact KW in Germany to see if they can help. I'm not overly confident of getting a reply but one can only try!

                Comment

                • simons2
                  S2Forum Addict
                  • Mar 2010
                  • 344
                  • Country: United Kingdom

                  #9
                  Could you not find out if any kw suspension applications are used in any motorsport , ie v8 touring cars etc and seek validation that way ?

                  Comment

                  • Mr.Crossfire
                    S2Forum Enthusiast
                    • Feb 2006
                    • 145
                    • Country: Finland

                    #10
                    Well, if your guy knows anything about mechanical engineering, that should be pretty obvious by just looking at the picture you posted. I have same kind of KW's myself, and the construction is such that the strut tube is made from thick walled tube material (doh) into which the threads have been machined, bottom cap welded on and the steering arm & the lower attaching parts to the steering knuckle are all made of plate material which has been bent/pressed to shape. The round piece into which the steering arm is attached is clearly made from simple bar stock, which has been machined and then welded on to the steering arm. Or first welded, then machined, I don't know.

                    The welding quality looks nice, at least from the looks of it. I guess your official guy is next suggesting for you to cut it up and provide welding penetration samples for him...

                    Interesting thing is though, if you crash your car and your strut is bent, are you not able to replace it with any other manufacturer parts than OE-Audi parts?

                    Comment

                    • le mans
                      S2Forum Enthusiast
                      • Nov 2013
                      • 165
                      • Country: New Zealand

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Mr.Crossfire
                      Interesting thing is though, if you crash your car and your strut is bent, are you not able to replace it with any other manufacturer parts than OE-Audi parts?
                      Thanks for the input - so plate steel it is. Don't laugh though, destructive testing is an option!

                      Regarding the comment about replacing damaged parts, it gets a little complicated. If the fitted suspension is adjustable (i.e. coilovers) then the LVVTA is responsible for certifying it. If the suspension is non-adjustable I believe LVVTA have no responsibility and it will simply be subject to passing 6 monthly/12 monthly (depending on age of car) Warrant of Fitness inspection. I'm not 100% on that point. There is a long list of 'thresholds' that are outlined on the LVVTA website. If the threshold isn't crossed then LVVTA certification isn't required. All adjustable suspension requires LVVTA certification here in NZ though. And clearly they are paranoid! They keep talking about dodgy parts from reputable companies, even with foreign certification and ISO accreditation.

                      Comment

                      • Rusty
                        Super Moderator
                        • Jun 2004
                        • 18953
                        • Country: United Kingdom

                        #12
                        If TÜV isn't good enough for them, then I can't imagine they pass much.

                        OE strut is also welded, so sounds like they're being :corey:

                        How do they suggest that 2 parts of metal are joined at 90 degrees Welding is one of the most commonly used joining methods for metal, in the world and is used on anything that has 4 wheels in any use. To say it's not safe, when performed to German quality and safety standards, is plain crazy. If it was cheap Chinese crap then fair enough but this is madness.

                        The parts will have been welded in accordance with a national or international standard. Get KW on the case and if possible, get the standards to pass on to the jobsworth who's doing the 'inspection'.
                        Cheers'en, AndyC
                        1994 ABY Coupe - Projekt Alpinweiss

                        Comment

                        • Mr.Crossfire
                          S2Forum Enthusiast
                          • Feb 2006
                          • 145
                          • Country: Finland

                          #13
                          Sounds somewhat contradictionary. There are those steering arms in fixed struts also. Oh well, the bureaucrats.

                          In Finland the rule is such that you are not allowed to weld struts or wishbones yourself. Which is annoying, but logical considering how much people there is with a welding machine who cannot weld. Anyway, TÜV-papers are like words from god here. Which is nice.

                          It is perfectly logical to demand such things if you are company purchasing steel structures from another company. I do it all the time at work. Welding sample inspecting, destructive tests etc. But for a consumer, that seems a bit heavy. That's why there are TÜV and similar certificating organizations.

                          So you don't have a KW representative at NZ? I would think they had come across this kind of a problem before?

                          Comment

                          • le mans
                            S2Forum Enthusiast
                            • Nov 2013
                            • 165
                            • Country: New Zealand

                            #14
                            There is a distributor here but I've bit a bit coy about contacting them as I imported my kit myself (I was rushing things - a red flag I know!) I may try them though anyway.

                            Comment

                            • le mans
                              S2Forum Enthusiast
                              • Nov 2013
                              • 165
                              • Country: New Zealand

                              #15
                              Update. Around 2 weeks ago the LVVTA Technical Advisory Committee reviewed my application for approval of the KW suspension and rejected it. The concern is with the steering arms and their multiple welds.

                              Since then I've been in touch with the NZ agent for KW and he has been very helpful. LVVTA and KW in Germany are now in direct contact so hopefully something will come out of that.

                              LVVTA are saying the European certification standards are quite complex. As I know these coilovers are on cars in the UK, can anyone tell me how certification works there? Do you subscribe to the same standards as the rest of the EU? Is there is UK document that details certification of these coilovers? The TUV certificate does not make specific reference to the steering arms and that seems to be enough to leave the LVVTA in doubt as to whether their proper construction has been verified. So far KW have said that they are required to be 'at least as strong as the OE part'. The LVVTA needs more detail though. Hopefully it will be forthcoming from KW.

                              Comment

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