Introductions and something some might consider insane

[driftin jo]

Please, I know a little bit about Citroens. The SM chassis was tested extensively by citroen upto 340hp. There is a bonneville SM, recordholder in its class, with 500+hp. The suspension arms, wheel bearings and all structural components make what's used by more modern cars look like mecano toys.

He will experience problems with grip, because weight distribution on an SM is excellent, and the nose isn't really heavy enough to even get the original power on the road well. Other than that, handling is excellent, even doubling the power would not cause any real problems. As long as the engine stays in the same place, geometry should be fine. The original 2.7 liter six cylinder weights about 140kg. No idea what the I5 engine weighs, but it won't be more than 50kg of difference which won't really influence a 1500kg car, and even if it does, I have infinite permutations in damping and suspension I can change, and can even add semi-active roll stabilisation from an XM if I need to.

So maybe no fast starts. So what? That's hardly what it's for. What I really want to know is if I can put it in without ending up with four or five reverse gears.

By the time you have got an I5 turbo in there and a gearbox /drive shafts etc that can cope with the power I would be surprised if you have added less than 150 kg to the front end.
I think you will find the power + extra weight will upset the handling , a lot.

[irishs2]

You are going FWD only, now I have heard of people welding centre diffs of quattros to get rwd drifting audis, can the same be done for converting urs6 auto box to go fwd only?

[DamianURS4]

the thought of an SM with 5-Pot performance is a wonderfully interesting idea though - you can see where the idea stems from!

[Bowlerwell]

Sounds like an interesting project.
Keep us updated.

[sans-pareil]

Unfortunately, I can't find anyone who seems to know if a differential in an audi automatic can be turned round.

A thought occurred to me however. Is anyone familiar with the internals of audi CVT automatics? Way back when, a characteristic of CVT's was considered to be that they could go as fast forwards as backwards. If the interior of the gearbox doesn't mind and is just as durable whether it's in forward or reverse gear, this would be precisely the solution I need. Once again then, a plea for an audi CVT guru to contact me.

[Acidburn]

shame you can't just use a fwd automatic box, I know of someone running a s4 twin turbo engine on one. Tonk's is running a fwd box on his cab. Just depends if you can get it all underneath.

[s2_wot]

Unfortunately, I can't find anyone who seems to know if a differential in an audi automatic can be turned round.

A thought occurred to me however. Is anyone familiar with the internals of audi CVT automatics? Way back when, a characteristic of CVT's was considered to be that they could go as fast forwards as backwards. If the interior of the gearbox doesn't mind and is just as durable whether it's in forward or reverse gear, this would be precisely the solution I need. Once again then, a plea for an audi CVT guru to contact me.

I have an auto quattro gearbox from an AAN if you'd like to buy one and open it up for a look. It's broken in some way, the previous owner of my car removed it when some part failed.

That brings be onto another subject are you going to tune this engine and if so what is the target? The autobox is the weakest part of my car although you may be in luck with just 2wd at least the wheels will spin if you send them too much power.

[quattro]

The original engine is mounted lengthwise. Rebuilding to transverse would dramatically change the cars geometry. Please people, let's not lose sight of the objective here. The engine goes in the same place as the original one, in line with the gearbox. Turning around an audi unit should fit fine. The main issue here is whether there is a way I can build it and deal with the direction of drive.

That's easy then get an Auto Audi box and get it totally re built and re designed, there is no off the shelf audi box that works like this.

Or just re-map the engine to fire in the opposite direction........

[mcandmar]

What a bonkers idea, i'm even more amazed a hard core Citroen fan would entertain the idea of a german engine under the bonnet.

The gearbox in the wrong place will be your biggest problem, however it is not uncommon for people to fit these 5cyl motors into VW camper vans. They also run with the gearbox sticking out infront of the engine so a little research into the world of VW conversions will give you the answer your looking for.

[cooperquattro]

why not use the volvo t5 engine and box??much easier as the t5 is fwd to start with and its a 5 pot and tuneable...has a better configuration than the audi for your application...
if you fit one of the audi boxes you will have to butcher the bulk head and drivshafts will never line up

[JP]

Question is the original box an Auto? If so what are their power capabilities? Reason I ask would it not be easier to make an adapter plate from engine to bell housing and modify the .Audi flex/torque plate to mate up to the Citroën torque converter.

I went that route when fitting an Audi engine to a Ford gearbox to turn my mk1 golf to rear wheel drive. Although j modified three stock Flywheel to take a Ford clutch so the spline matched.

Other than that it may be worth looking at the Porsche 924/944 transmission setup although I can't be sure if they ever came as auto.

Best of luck with the project will love to see that once its running. Keep us posted or even start a build thread you'll have at least one subscriber.

[sans-pareil]

That VW camper tip sounds like an interesting lead, I'll look into that. Reversing the direction of rotation of the engine would be possible, different cams starter and oil pump and turn around the pistons goes a long way already. We've done that on citroen engines. Problem then is the torque converter which isn't designed to turn that way. That's all why I'd like to solve the problem in the gearbox.

The customer seems to feel that the original 230hp will be enough for him. I'd tune it a bit further myself, as we'll probably be using programmable engine management like VEMS anyway which supports EGT WBO2 and boost control. I was a little surprised by the desire for an audi engine myself. Not that audi doesn't make nice engines, but I am just sticking to turbocharging the maserati unit for my own SM.

There is a bit of a historical link with audi though via NSU, Auto Union, the Ro80 and comotor, and the CX gti turbo press book actually specifically thanks Audi for help with the turbo setup. All CX gti turbo's have a VAG part number tag on the wastegate.

[cooperquattro]

your ****in crazy man

[sans-pareil]

The original auto box is a Borg Warner T35, of an obscure subtype that parts are impossible to find for and that needs rebuilding at least every 100,000km and drops the cars' top speed an acceleration by more than 10%. It's a piece of ()*&.

Bell housing is OK, torque converter would be usable were it not that the original SM and DS engines all turn the other way around from the rest of the world...

I'm pretty sure the volvo t5 is transverse. The SM is north-south orientation, enginewise.

[veneto rs2]

I hope your customer has the chassis where the original Maserati motor was scrapped already.
In that case I could try to understand the project....

But to pull out a motor like that and put an Audi turbo IL5 in his original place it's blasphemy IMHO

Wit all the due respect the SM it's a collectable piece, a piece of motoring history....and the same engine equipped the Maserati Merak....... and the Ligier js2.......

Sayed this, anyone may do whatever he wants with his cars and his money.

Stefano