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**prj** · 7 June 2012, 11:43

Great job.

I am curious - do you now have well working per-cylinder knock control with the MoTeC?

**kenax** · 7 June 2012, 11:51

Originally posted by prj View Post

Great job.

I am curious - do you now have well working per-cylinder knock control with the MoTeC?

Nope, I'm using a stethoscope and gen 3 kenax racing knock impulse sender

in other words, I've come up with a working (and nearly free) knock tube mounting using a banjo and some odds and ends

also, knock is not that much of a problem with ethanol.

**prj** · 7 June 2012, 11:57

Mm, okay.
The way modern EMS work is that they keep the engine always on the knock limit and trim the timing from each cylinder individually, because even though we would like - in reality the filling and the fueling is a little bit different between cylinders.
This allows to extract more performance safely from the engine.
It requires knowing the engine phase and having per-cylinder linearization maps along with knock sensor processing IC's to reach the best effect.

I know how it works when tuning, but conditions are not always the same. I use a condenser microphone and an amplifier with headphones to listen for knock during tuning of the 2.2T.
The OEM ECM's detect knock very accurately themselves, but I like to hear the engine as a double safety measure.

I just had a look on MoTeC's site and it seems the M84 does not support knock monitoring at all.
How come you decided to go for the MoTeC specifically? Was it a good offer? I have played a little bit with the Tatech ECU, and that seemed to work pretty well also on the I5. It also worked with the stock knock sensors and detected knock pretty accurately.

And it's finnish

**kenax** · 7 June 2012, 12:05

First of all, even a single knock can cause catastrophic devastation in very highly tuned engines. So knock-based optimization is absolutely a no-no in my opinion.

OEM ecu's have a very highly and precisely tuned filtering for noise in the knock sensor signal. In order for the knock sensing to work properly on an aftermarket ecu, there should be a lot of work done to filter out anomalies from the engine noise.

And no, Motec doesnt have knock sensing, at least in this cheap-*** version

Further yet about the actual tuning, as the car is made for standing mile, it's crucial that the tune is not at the very brink of destruction as it will fail on the mile pull.

**Thuppu** · 7 June 2012, 12:22

Wow, great to read of the progress with your car Kenneth. Really impressive result with the final stage. Want E85!!! Oh, why don't we have it here.

**prj** · 7 June 2012, 12:25

Originally posted by kenax View Post

First of all, even a single knock can cause catastrophic devastation in very highly tuned engines. So knock-based optimization is absolutely a no-no in my opinion.

A single knock won't cause much, and you will always have *some* knock, at least on gasoline.
The problem is the chain reaction, where you get knock and it heats up the combustion chamber, and then subsequently the cylinder temps go higher and higher, causing more and more knock. If on the first event the ignition angle is taken back and held back somewhat for some time in that cylinder, then there will be no subsequent events and there will also be no damage. Even if the specific output is quite high.

OEM ecu's have a very highly and precisely tuned filtering for noise in the knock sensor signal. In order for the knock sensing to work properly on an aftermarket ecu, there should be a lot of work done to filter out anomalies from the engine noise.

I agree. Knock monitoring is a pretty difficult concept, but new dedicated IC's have now made it quite a bit easier.

And no, Motec doesnt have knock sensing, at least in this cheap-*** version

When using E85 as fuel, it's not as important as on gasoline anyway

Further yet about the actual tuning, as the car is made for standing mile, it's crucial that the tune is not at the very brink of destruction as it will fail on the mile pull.

Riding the knock limit is not being on the brink of destruction, it is just running optimal ignition timing for each cylinder, and due to this extracting more efficiency out of the engine and producing less heat (lower EGT's). It is actually a lot less stressful on the engine to ride the knock limit and run less boost with lower EGT, than to make the same power further away from the knock limit with higher boost and higher EGT.

Modern knock sensing is much better than the human ear. I'd like to think I know pretty well how exactly knock sounds after tuning about 50 of these 2.2T engines, but the ECM usually sees it faster. And on 2.2T that was developed in the end of 1980's.

Anyway, you are making great results.
Is there any chance you would come to Haapsalu, Kiltsi for the standing mile event?
It's on the 16th of June. Or is this out of the question?

You can see some people who have registered here:
http://www.onemile.ee/?lang=en&page=competitors

**kenax** · 7 June 2012, 12:29

Originally posted by prj View Post

How come you decided to go for the MoTeC specifically? Was it a good offer? I have played a little bit with the Tatech ECU, and that seemed to work pretty well also on the I5. It also worked with the stock knock sensors and detected knock pretty accurately.

I wanted a proper engine management system. I had some experience from Autronic SM4 before and that was a very strong candidate. It would've required the spark multiplexer, which wouldve risen the price a bit and at the same time I found the new M84 Motec. I had previous encounters with MoTeC from rally stuff, so I knew it's a working device with no problems to my knowledge.

I used VEMS for a few years and had so much problems, especially in the end with newer firmwares that I lost all trust and faith in it. That was the reason I went on to find another ECU. I was done with having an ECU-hobby instead of a car tuning hobby.

Anyway, MoTeC has worked perfectly so far, nothing (absolutely nothing) has went sour so far.

**kenax** · 7 June 2012, 12:32

Originally posted by prj View Post

Is there any chance you would come to Haapsalu, Kiltsi for the standing mile event?
It's on the 16th of June. Or is this out of the question?

Would be fun, but the safety regulations with the BHRA cages, fire extinguish systems, scream pipe regulations, chute etc. makes it impossible.

**prj** · 7 June 2012, 12:37

Originally posted by kenax View Post

Would be fun, but the safety regulations with the BHRA cages, fire extinguish systems, scream pipe regulations, chute etc. makes it impossible.

I don't think you need any of those. The only thing is the screamer pipe, it should be looking away from the car:

The exhaust system must be pointed out backwards from under the car, away from the driver and fuel tank.

This means it can be on the side...

As I understand you have not made more than 290km/h on the standing mile, so you don't need the fire extinguish, chute, roll cage, etc.
The one mile challenge is meant for street cars with modified engines.

**kenax** · 7 June 2012, 12:42

Originally posted by prj View Post

I don't think you need any of those. The only thing is the screamer pipe, it should be looking away from the car:

This means it can be on the side...

As I understand you have not made more than 290km/h on the standing mile, so you don't need the fire extinguish, chute, roll cage, etc.
The one mile challenge is meant for street cars with modified engines.

285kmh is the best so far.

We have the Halli event at the same day, but I just cancelled my going there as well, as I have other stuff to do then. Maybe next year in estonia then

Welcome to SpeedParty 7.7.2012 in Joensuu, Finland. There were a few guys there from estonia in 2010. We fixed the broken drive shaft of the Audi 80 after the event at our workshop..

**prj** · 7 June 2012, 13:00

I am afraid I will be in the Ukraine tuning some 2.2T on 7.7

Oh well...

285 is a good result. I am hoping to break 260. But all I have is a stock RS4 with some tweaks.

**kenax** · 7 June 2012, 13:08

Originally posted by prj View Post

285 is a good result. I am hoping to break 260. But all I have is a stock RS4 with some tweaks.

But it's nowhere near the potential of the car

It will go over 300kmh unless something goes wrong. My aim is for 305-310, let's see if it'll go that

**prj** · 7 June 2012, 13:24

As it should.

We have a UrS6 here on gasoline and water/meth doing 300 with a HX40 Super

And we could say your turbo is a little bigger than that.

**kenax** · 7 June 2012, 13:29

Originally posted by prj View Post

As it should.

We have a UrS6 here on gasoline and water/meth doing 300 with a HX40 Super

And we could say your turbo is a little bigger than that.

Janis? I've spoken with him through youtube.

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