wagner tubular with v-band

[lind4hl]

It got quiet here?

[AndersS2]

1/2" thick mild steel base flange and heavy wall stainless tubes for the runners, fully back purged and TIG welded. Black steel or stainless will both crack over time on a long runner tube manifold, its the nature of the beast. Any company that claims otherwise is telling you a story, unless they are making it out of Titanium ($$$).

Price will be highly competitive, we're shooting for a retail price of around $900.

I have a complete blacksteeled manifold as pr now, and im quite happy with it as it have not yet warped or cracked, considerd its heavy usage without turbobrace or flexi section in the DP during its 4 years of punishment. But some minor details could do off better, like a v-band collector and a real 44mm WG v-band option.

Anyway, thats why I asked for a blacksteel one

I would like to try it if the final price tag ends up around the indicated 900$
Do you have a prototype tester?

[lind4hl]

anders, i could always remake your mani to V-band

[a4kquattro]

It got quiet here?

sorry, I have product to ship and a business to run. My apologies for the slow response


In regards to your comment about warping during welding that applies to any material selection. The warp issue I was referring to is during use, not during welding.

[lind4hl]

sorry, I have product to ship and a business to run. My apologies for the slow response


In regards to your comment about warping during welding that applies to any material selection. The warp issue I was referring to is during use, not during welding.

so it´s better that the welds crack?

[a4kquattro]

so it´s better that the welds crack?

I have no idea what you're talking about. 304L schedule 10 runners and thick mild steel for the flanges is a proven header building technique.

[G60Rallye]

Good news that somebody is going to be producing a v-band manifold! I have been looking for one for a few months now and was considering making my own, so it looks like I will wait a few months to see what this one is like!

One last thing, lind4hl why is it you need to keep coming with such a belittling tone in your replys? I have noticed it in a few threads including my own build thread. For a young person you seem to feel that putting others down all the time is a good thing. Perhaps consider that there are others on this forum that know as much as you and some a lot more? I dont see anybody picking your build to pieces even though I am sure some could. So perhaps try with some constructive criticism and help with your experince rather than saying others are wrong all the time?

[lind4hl]

G60rallye:

What does my age have to do with this?

im not putting anyone down, i am just talking from my own experiences with Manifolds in both blacksteel, 304s and 316l.
i do know very well that there are people with experience on this forum, as on all other forums, and definatly more than me also, but as said, this is from my experince im talking.

Regarding my build thread, people can pick how much they want, as i dont really care, it´s my car and i do whatever i like to it.


Im not saying that people are wrong. BUT! welding togheter 2 different material is never good.

and backpurging are always a standard, you dont even need to tell this...

if you have felt that you are being talked down etc etc. im sorry for that.

a4Quattro: SS is not 304 btw, since 304 is not pure Stainless Steel. 316L is stainless steel.

Edit: i do know some people that are happy with my help anyways..

[lind4hl]

I´ve been told to not say anything else about this, and i respect that.

if any forum member want to hear my thoughs and "the things i know" since im too young to have any knowledge
Pm me..

[a4kquattro]

I´ve been told to not say anything else about this, and i respect that.

if any forum member want to hear my thoughs and "the things i know" since im too young to have any knowledge
Pm me..

The problem is not that you know nothing, the problem is that you speak in absolutes. for instance:

welding togheter 2 different material is never good.

While its true that welding some metals together will result in a poor weld this is most DEFINITELY not ALWAYS the case!!! For instance, welding mild steel and 304L results in a fine weld, so long as proper welding procedures are followed.

Nobody is saying you are not knowledgeable, I'm sure you are a fine fabricator. Just try to research more before you make bold statements such as the above.

[URQguy]

G60rallye:

What does my age have to do with this?

im not putting anyone down, i am just talking from my own experiences with Manifolds in both blacksteel, 304s and 316l.
i do know very well that there are people with experience on this forum, as on all other forums, and definatly more than me also, but as said, this is from my experince im talking.

Regarding my build thread, people can pick how much they want, as i dont really care, it´s my car and i do whatever i like to it.


Im not saying that people are wrong. BUT! welding togheter 2 different material is never good.

and backpurging are always a standard, you dont even need to tell this...

if you have felt that you are being talked down etc etc. im sorry for that.

a4Quattro: SS is not 304 btw, since 304 is not pure Stainless Steel. 316L is stainless steel.

Edit: i do know some people that are happy with my help anyways..

My longwinded post got deleted that was a bit more polite, so I will cut to the chase here. I got tipped off to this post by a bunch of customers.

There is a ton of misinformation with your post. You need to realize that while anybody that knows anything about material science understands that you are talkign out of your ***, the majority of motorheads are just wanting the best product and know little. You are being dishonest with your advice and comments leading people with misinformation. It would be the the same thing as the news show 20/20 misleading hte american people about Audi's "unintended acceleration" in the late 80s. It almost killed Audi in the states, and took a decade to recoup. It is the reason we dont have s2 coupes and rs2s and b5 rs4s here in the states.

The problem with forums is that hte post whores are taken to be a good source of knowledge. That is usually the opposite of the truth you find if you browse enough forums. The guys that know something about anything have better things to do. You are basicaly stealing buisness away from an honest man by misleading customers by unbased information.

What EFI Express is doing is great. They are offering a CAD designed and CAD tested manifold for the application that uses a superior exhaust housing in the Stainless tial v-band housing(Wait what??? They are casting these things in Stainless? Why not black iron??? ), taking into account many materials and options with a release of under 900 USD.. Yes, a 1000hp capable manifold for 900 usd. You should appoligize to Marc and EFIEpxress for misleading potential buyers.

To correct the misinformation, to meet the "stainless" family standards, there has to be a minimum of 11 percent chromium content by weight. 304 DOES meet this requirement and is considered Stainless. I do not evn know where you would begin to find this information. The difference between 304L and 316 is the higher nickle content(reason nickle is used for currency) for improved corrosion resistance. It is considered the "Marine" grade for this reason, Nickle does not improve strength though, and infact it hurts it in high heat application as it has a high rate of expansion proportional with heat. The heat cycling is what work hardenes the metal and leads to eventual failure. The failure point on 304 and 316L stainless is usually on the weld boundry and not on the seam itself. If not properly welded, the latice structure as the new bonds are formed are weakest there. 321 addresses this problem as it has titanium in the alloy(wait, you mean more than one metal? ).

No metal is pure. There are on average of 10^23 impurities to every cubic meter of metal materlal. Impurities are what makes alloys strong. To really blow your mind, there are stainless alloys that even have aluminum in them!!! 1018 (commonly refered to as HRS) and stainless austenitic metals are welded day in and day out in applications far more imporatant than your turbo header. Using ER309 or ER310 rod makes the weld an easy and strong affair. This rod contains a bunch of chrome that helps blend the latice and make new bonds that are compatible and strong. They meet the requirement of being the right atomic radius, and they blend well.


Comparing your experience does not mean anything. The user on s2forum does not know all the variables. Is the design identical just different materials? Is the turbo supported? Does the downpipe have sufficient flex in it? Solid mounted motor or dampened? What turbo/weight is on it? Braced? EGT's are usuall ywhat kills manis. What temps and ignitons numbers were used? What heat cycling proceedures were used?

I have seen people defend cast manifolds to a flaw as being street setups. I weld and repair cast manifolds all the time. they have an advantage of being closer to the head, and less weight attached and a smaller moment force on them. They still expand and contract and work harden over time no mate how much nickle is included in the casting.

Lastly, Backpurging is an industry standard with a reputable shop/buisness. Sadly, there are lots of 23 year olds welding in their parents garages using their friends welder that do not have those standards. If I was buying a header, I would want that bit of information included.

In conclusion, I hate misinformation. I hope I did not come accross too harsh. I have seen your car, and like some of the work and mods. Do whatever you want to your car, and spend your money however you would like. Try not to make generalizations and pass them off as facts to others. The phrase "BTW" is the most flagrant way of saying "i know everything." Maybe I am just a newb on the s2forums and everybody else is just "quiet" because they know it is normal behavior, but I do not want an honest guy like Marc having his idea smashed by this behavior.

[GazzaG60]

guys

lets not turn this into the vortex please.

im sure we have a lost in translation issue here. a mines bigger than yours is not the idea here. i wont comment on either of your work as i dont have any. what i will say is in general parts from the states are not as good as uk or EU parts for quality. i am making an generalisation. having said that bang for buck the states has it usually. one of the reasons i have bought from killa (paul) who im sure you know.

lets concentrate on the benifits of the said design. Tubes and Vband. we all have differnt ideas about materials and out personal choice.

[repo]

Not taking part to the heavy debate on the materials or techniques, but mentioning, one can order my manifold with any type of turbo flange, including Vbands. Just let me know which one.

I get Tial flanges direct from the source, but if it is some other brand, customer needs to provide either drawings(more expensive) or the flange (cheaper).

[GazzaG60]

so repo/marc do you see any real advantages of vband over a standard type flange?

[repo]

Ease of installation. Less grinding and hammering when making the manifold. More lightweight structure. No blowing gaskets.