Do you want to know where Audi is with their classics...

[Rusty]

I've spend about £5k with Audi in parts over the last few years.

I think a letter focussing on the NLA issue and with reference to the Audi Community's response, Audi-nla, press coverage, unity OOOO would be a great start and have a reply sorted for when they tell you that 7000 beetle bonnets exist ina warehouse so that's OK. THen move on to the servicing and general attitude to old cars and then suggest that they take an active interest in their loyal customers rather than cup holders that can hold a small, meduim, large and Anerican sized soda from Maccy D's.

[S2central.net]

Ahhh decisions... I have limited time to spend on this today... There is the day job... I'll print it over lunch here and get the red ink out - always better that way.

[HPmuirt]

Paul, below is a first pass edit of your letter above. It still needs significant further editing but I am heading into a meeting so I thought I would post it as is for a first reaction.

Cheers n

Si



Open Letter to Audi UK and Audi AG

By way of introduction, I represent a multi-award winning internet forum dedicated to the Audi S2 and RS2 models but also supporting the UR Quattro, S4 & S6 models. Over recent years there has been a lot of discussion on this forum about the difficulties faced by owners of these and other older Audi models, due to increased levels of parts which are being declared ‘no longer available’ (NLA).

Couple that to the difficulties these same owners face with some repair and maintenance operations on old vehicles since many Audi UK technicians have little or no training on them and the electronic service advisory system (ELSA) does not cover them adequately. It has also been brought to my attention that many dealerships have already disposed of the paper documentation and bespoke tools used to look after these old vehicles, after declaring them obsolete and of no inherent value.

The multi-facetted skills of users on internet forums such as ours, their camaraderie, open sharing of information are what we have to come to rely on to keep these cars on the road in the prime condition that they deserve. This makes owning such a vehicle only possible for those with a high degree of mechanical aptitude and enthusiasm or those who can make use of the professional services from a very small number of independent specialists who are suitably equipped.

We have long since felt that Audi UK and Audi AG have a less than positive attitude to owners of these old vehicles. As much as the cars are a pleasure to own and drive, the experience is often tainted by the lack of support offered by Audi.

Our frustration with this situation was recently increased with the news this week that some internet searches for keywords such as “RS2” now draw attention to web sites hosted by Audi UK that inform visitors of the schemes being investigated to make it possible for people to bring these vehicles to Audi for scrap and disposal in return for a reduction on the price of a new Audi. The rationale given to the proposed scheme is alleged to be that new cars are more environmentally friendly, safer and that it would be a boost to the automotive industry in the current economic climate. However it is due to the heritage of some of these older cars, such as The UR quattro and RS2 that Audi enjoys its current reputation.

Audi still use this heritage when it suits, such as using the fabulous footage of a sport quattro in its advertising, it is just a shame that in truth, rather than helping to maintain such a heritage, Audi would seem to actively support the scrapping of older vehicles in an attempt to gain sales as a short-term fix for the current economic crisis. Fortunately, due to the level of public outcry the government has decided to scrap this proposal.

Owners of these old Audi models, facing complete obsolescence if nothing is done, drive a relatively small number of miles per year. They are generally cherished second or third vehicles that do not run up high annual mileage, with the primary car often also being an Audi. Of course they have higher CO emissions at the exhaust than current state of art machinery, but when you offset the carbon footprint of creating a new car against its reduced emissions over such a small dynamic operational range of the vehicle’s life - then often the older car is more ‘carbon neutral’.

These are solid, dependable, safe cars however, often when such vehicles are involved in relatively small accidents they are written off by insurance companies because, either some parts are unobtainable, or very often the cost of the parts is so high in proportion to the value of the car that they are deemed uneconomical to repair. These old cars are devalued in the general public’s eye because they are aware of the high cost and complexity of running such a vehicle, meaning cars which are otherwise perfectly repairable are not now financially viable. Such vehicles are then crushed in a scrap yard which does not bode well for the Audi heritage vehicle owners.

What I find most frustrating is that the reputation Audi has built since the inception of the original Quattro supercar is the motto of ‘Vorsprung durch Technik’ as seemingly been lost along the way. This term loosely translates in English to “advance through technology” and this is what we have seen with the quattro drive train, alloy space frame chassis, dynamic ride control, stratified fuel injection, turbo-diesel technology and other advanced capabilities made possible by your technical partners by way of ABS, variable turbine geometry, fly-by-wire, traction control and other wizardry.

In this climate, you need to continue to innovate in order to succeed. It is this innovation that created the current Audi brand in recognition of vehicles with great engine performance, control, comfort and prestige. The legacy of Audi’s history in motorsport goes a long way to validating that notion. Look how Audi redefined what a world rally car needed to be, how Audi dominated the IMSA & TOCA racing series and, of course most recently, what it achieved in the LMP series with immense success through innovation of new FSi and TDi technology.

In support of the motorsport success at Audi came the S, RS and R branding of Audi’s top of the range vehicles. The first of which was the Audi S2. Of course the original Quattro coupe came before that and it must receive special recognition as the vehicle which really turned round the fortunes for Audi AG.

The challenge of keeping these old vehicles running properly is significant. The owners of these old cars do not wish to receive special treatment from Audi – just seeing some tangible evidence from Audi that we are not going to face continuing complexity in owning them through time would be some small victory.

With their galvanised body shells, under-stressed engines, heavy duty suspension and supreme build quality – the only thing that makes the original S & RS models difficult to own is the continued lack of support from Audi.

There is a huge groundswell of support across the owners of these Audi heritage models for the campaign for an Audi commitment to help maintain these cars with constant comparisons being made to the BMW heritage programs. There, they are finding alternate sources of manufacture for the growing number of parts that would otherwise become NLA. The internet forums are very well connected across the car industry and manufacturing specialists in a wide number of technologies. These communities are more than willing and able to help Audi create a significantly better way to look after its heritage.

By creating new innovative ways to support the heritage owners, Audi will join a significant number of other manufacturers such as Mercedes-Benz, BMW, Porsche, Ferrari, Jaguar and others who have recognised the importance of respecting their heritage. Done properly, this would be a new profit centre for Audi – nobody is expecting the cost of operating such a division to be taken off the bottom line. If Audi choose not to join this growing group of manufacturers that support their heritage owners fully, then they may find their heritage owners deserting the marquee for both their weekend toys but more critically their primary vehicles.

I am very aware of the Audi Tradition team that runs out of Germany, and I am told they have a stock of approximately 7000 spare parts. Whilst I recognise that to be an important step in the right direction – it is just not a scalable long term solution to this problem. 7000 parts is practically nothing in real terms unless there is a mechanism that Audi can have NLA parts remanufactured – in small but efficient batches when the demand in there. BMW, Ferrari & Mercedes manage to do this through their heritage divisions – there is no reason why Audi cannot do this profitably.

I am sure you will recognise the frustration that the true Audi devotees have when our loyalty and passion for the brand is seemingly ignored by Audi and that so little is being done to care for the devoted heritage owners.

However, should Audi make a commitment to meet, discuss and work with the various Audi heritage groups to maintain their precious vehicles, then I am sure that this would produce a significant positive impact on the future sales of new vehicles as a renewed dedication to the marquee would be created. I am sure that this could also be something that Audi could deride significant positive marketing from and I am certain that the Audi heritage groups would be more than willing to participate in.

For example we could organise the UK’s largest collection of UR quattros to celebrate the announcement that Audi is planning to remanufacture many of the NLA parts in order to support their heritage owners and invite the national press and motoring press to cover the event.

It also occurs to me that Audi can use this scheme to align with the green agenda of re-use and re-cycle. The vast majority of the cars we are talking about are not gas guzzling dinosaurs. The carbon footprint of creating new cars is higher than keeping the older cars running – especially for the low annual mileage they accrue by their devoted owners.

Please do not dismiss this letter with a generic or automated reply. Let’s see some more innovation from Audi on creative ways to solve this problem.


Signed, the administration, on behalf of www.s2forum.com

[S2central.net]

Like what you've done there Simon - REALLY appreciate that... I've done some other cuts over lunch... Let me see if I can blend an edit of this and mine into something better - its still going to be a long letter - I am less concerned about that now. We cannot make a simple plea in a few paragraphs and sound bites... Audi should appreciate the time, effort and thought that is put into creating such a letter.

[Keeper of The Kitten]

I think a couple of corrections to brush up the lingo and ensure we present a sense of professionalism:

Faceted - one "t"

Marque - one "e"

I believe that the word after "Vorsprung durch Technik" would read better using "has" instead of "as"

I'll give thorough proof readings to anything if required!

Is the scrappage scheme supported by the government now? The paragraph above seems to suggest it hasn't supported it, but the news I saw an hour or so ago seemed to be saying it was now a firm commitment of theirs?

Incidentally I've had the latest response through from Simon Emery, suspect it is a standard response about scrappage schemes. I'll post it on AudiNLA in my thread there.

[Sonic]

Is the scrappage scheme supported by the government now? The paragraph above seems to suggest it hasn't supported it, but the news I saw an hour or so ago seemed to be saying it was now a firm commitment of theirs?

Ditto - wasnt this just approved in the budget?

[S2central.net]

Take three then... Please proof read and spot any typos or grammar that has been missed... I too just heard about the budget - will need to make sure we are correct on that...

It runs over 4 pages but I've broken into sections with headings which considerably help with the readability... especially so when its a 4 page PDF instead one big orrible looking block of text on here.
An Introduction

I represent the devoted members of a multi-award winning internet forum dedicated to the Audi S2 / RS2 models and also supporting the UR Quattro, S4 & S6 models. Over recent years there has been a lot of discussion on this forum about the difficulties faced by owners of these and other older Audis, due to increased levels of parts which are being declared ‘no longer available’ (NLA).

Couple that to the difficulties these same owners face with some repair and maintenance operations on old vehicles since many Audi UK technicians have little or no training on them and the electronic service advisory system (ELSA) does not cover them adequately. It has also been brought to my attention that many dealerships have already disposed of the paper documentation and bespoke tools used to look after these old vehicles, after declaring them obsolete and of no inherent value.

The multi-facetted skills of users on internet forums such as ours, their camaraderie, open sharing of information are what we have to come to rely on to keep these cars on the road in the prime condition that they deserve. This makes owning such a vehicle only possible for those with a high degree of mechanical aptitude and enthusiasm or those who can make use of the professional services from a very small number of independent specialists who are suitably equipped.

We have long since felt that Audi UK and Audi AG have a less than positive attitude to owners of these old vehicles. As much as the cars are a pleasure to own and drive, the experience is often tainted by the lack of support from Audi.


Be Seen to be Green…

Our frustration with this situation was recently increased with this week’s news that some internet searches for keywords such as “RS2” now draw attention to web sites hosted by Audi UK that inform visitors of the schemes being investigated to make it possible for people to bring old vehicles into Audi for scrap and disposal in return for a reduction on the price of a new Audi. The rationale given to the proposed scheme is alleged to be that new cars are more environmentally friendly, safer and that it would be a boost to the automotive industry in the current economic climate. However it is due to the success and heritage of some of these older cars, such as The UR quattro and RS2 that Audi enjoys its current reputation.

Audi still use this heritage when it suits, but rather than helping to maintain such a heritage, Audi would seem to actively support the scrapping of older vehicles in an attempt to gain sales as a short-term fix for the current economic crisis. Fortunately, due to the level of public outcry the government has decided to scrap this proposal.

Owners of these old Audi models, facing complete obsolescence if nothing is done, drive a relatively small number of miles per year. They are generally cherished second or third vehicles that do not run up high annual mileage, with the primary car often also being an Audi. Of course they have higher emissions at the exhaust than current state of art machinery, but when you offset the carbon footprint of creating a new car against its reduced emissions over such a small dynamic operational range of the vehicle’s life - then often the older car is more ‘carbon neutral’.


Preserve the Heritage

We also think it is unfair to imply the older cars are less safe in some way just because they have not been subjected to most recent EU crash tests. These are solid, dependable, safe cars.

However, you may not be aware that often when such vehicles are involved in relatively small accidents they are written off by insurance companies because, either some parts are unobtainable, or very often the cost of the parts is so high in proportion to the value of the car that they are deemed uneconomical to repair. These old cars are devalued in the general public’s eye because they are aware of the high cost and complexity of running such a vehicle. This means that cars which are otherwise perfectly repairable are not now financially viable. Such vehicles are then crushed in a scrap yard which does not bode well for the Audi heritage vehicle owners.

What I find most frustrating is that the reputation Audi has built since the inception of the original Quattro supercar is that the automotive creativity brought to us by the legendary ‘Vorsprung durch Technik’ motto is at risk of rusting away before our eyes or being condemned to historic museums. This term, loosely translated into English as “advance through technology” is what we have seen with the quattro drive train, alloy space frame chassis, dynamic ride control, stratified fuel injection, turbo-diesel technology and other advanced capabilities made possible by your technical partners by way of ABS, variable turbine geometry, fly-by-wire, traction control and other wizardry.


Innovate to Succeed

In this climate, you need to continue to innovate in order to succeed. In this case, we are looking for some commercial innovation, perhaps enabled by the application of some internet technology that can help solve this ‘NLA’ problem in the long term.
Innovation created the current Audi brand in recognition of vehicles with great performance, control, comfort, safety and prestige. The legacy of Audi’s history in motorsport goes a long way to validating that notion. Look how Audi redefined what a world rally car needed to be, how Audi dominated the IMSA & TOCA racing series, and most recently, what it achieved in the LMP series with immense success through innovation of new FSi and TDi technology.

In support of the motorsport success at Audi came the S, RS and R branding of Audi’s top of the range vehicles. The first of which was the Audi S2. Of course the original Quattro coupe came before that and it must receive special recognition as the vehicle which really turned round the fortunes for Audi AG.

The challenge of keeping these old vehicles running properly is already significant and it only looks to become worse if the ‘NLA’ issue is not addressed.

With their galvanised body shells, under-stressed engines, heavy duty suspension and supreme build quality – the only thing that makes the original S & RS models difficult to own is the continued lack of support from Audi.

There is a huge groundswell of support across the owners of these Audi heritage models for the campaign for an Audi commitment to help maintain these cars with constant comparisons being made to the BMW heritage programs. There, they are finding alternate sources of manufacture for the growing number of parts that would otherwise become NLA. The internet forums are very well connected across the car industry and manufacturing specialists in a wide number of technologies. These communities are more than willing and able to help Audi create a significantly better way to look after its heritage.


What’s in it for Audi ?

By creating new innovative ways to support the heritage owners, Audi will join a significant number of other premium car manufacturers such as Mercedes-Benz, BMW, Porsche, Ferrari, Jaguar and others who have recognised the importance of respecting their legacy vehicles. Done properly, this would be a new profit centre for Audi – nobody is expecting the cost of operating such a division to be taken off the bottom line. If Audi choose not to join this growing group of manufacturers that fully support their legacy, then they may find the heritage owners deserting the Audi marquee for both their weekend toys and more critically their primary vehicles.

I am aware of the Audi Tradition team that runs out of Germany, and I am told they have a stock of approximately 7000 spare parts. Whilst this is a step in the right direction, it is not a scalable long-term solution to the problem. 7000 parts is practically nothing in real terms unless there is a mechanism that Audi can have NLA parts remanufactured – in small but efficient batches when the demand in there. BMW, Ferrari & Mercedes manage to do this through their heritage divisions – there is no reason why Audi cannot do this profitably.
Summary

I am sure you will recognise the frustration that the true Audi devotees have when our loyalty and passion for the brand is seemingly ignored by Audi and that so little is being done to preserve the older cars that helped make Audi the success that it is today.

However, should Audi make a commitment to meet, discuss and work with the various Audi heritage groups to maintain their precious vehicles, then I am sure that this would produce a significant positive impact on the future sales of new vehicles as a renewed dedication to the marquee would be created. I am sure that this could also be something that Audi could derive significant positive marketing from and I am certain that the Audi heritage groups would be more than willing to participate in.

For example we could organise the UK’s largest collection of UR quattros, and other older models, to celebrate the announcement that Audi is planning to remanufacture many of the NLA parts in order to support their heritage owners and invite the national press and motoring press to cover the event.

It also occurs to me that Audi can use this scheme to align with the green agenda of reduce, re-use and re-cycle. The vast majority of the cars we are talking about are not gas guzzling dinosaurs. The carbon footprint of creating new cars is higher than keeping the older cars running – especially for the low annual mileage they accrue by their devoted owners.


In Conclusion

Please do not dismiss this letter with a generic or automated reply. Let’s see some innovation from Audi on creative ways to solve this problem.

We appreciate the matter is a complex one that cannot be solved overnight, but we feel that you need to recognise the importance of such input from owners clubs and communities like ours. After all, we are the most likely people to walk into an Audi showroom and discuss new vehicle purchases anytime soon – just don’t expect us to scrap the old car along the way !

I am available to discuss this matter with you personally if you would find that valuable. Please see my contact details supplied on the covering letter.

Signed,

Paul Nugent

on behalf of www.s2forum.com

[HPmuirt]

Ditto - wasnt this just approved in the budget?

Ah damn sorry, I was in a meeting and someone said it had been dropped.....so it was passed was it?

I will have a proper look at Paul's latest draft this evening and this time I will use Marque and not marquee as I am not interested in the heritage of big tents

Cheers n

Si

[S2central.net]

Good man Simon - there's a few fluffy bits in there... and I broke up some of your super long sentences... I know lawyers have a habit of that.

[S2central.net]

Actually - Simon - PM me your Email address... I'll send you the native version in Word and we can track changes to good effect.

[s2driveruk]

Paul, couple of things on your letter:

1) Think it should mention the 5k+ members and 8yrs in operation, gives credability
2) One thing i thought might be worth illustrating is that lots of us (significant percentage) own more than one VAG car and that the attitude of Audi harms not only the ability to look after the 'classic' but acertainly influences our new car purchase decisions too.
3) In many cases the cost of the parts they do still hold for many of these cars is frankly rediculous.....£2-4K for a new rear diff is so prohibitive that they will likely end up being binned for no reason other than never likely to be sold

Other than that I think its long but well worded

David

[S2central.net]

Dave... I've taken the next stages up in private Email with Simon. To your points...

1 - I added that info into a cover letter already - spooky...
2 - The point is made about heritage cars generally being 2nd or 3rd cars for folk and Simon made the point about purchasing decisions...
3 - Thats kind of a separate issue wrt part pricing, but it is a factor on some of these uneconomical repair scenarios from small prangs

[Jas11n]

Ohh, stoke that fire up >>>> Linky.

The UR returns? what a pile of crap

Auto Express

[Rusty]

I think Audi's idea of a 'stripped out cabin' and mine might differ mischeif. In no way is this a Sport quattro replacement. Idiots

[S2central.net]

Yawn city - boring - try harder Audi - if indeed this article is accurate.