Group Buy : Mahle Motorsport - Pistons

[V6quattro]

8.54 : 1 CR is perfect

I really like to have the 142 alloy so count my in for a 82mm 86.4mm stoke set please!

[Wizard-of-OD]

Nice! Only i noticed you saing the CR was 9:1 using the OEM AAN metal layer gasket. But when i calculate it with a 44cc combustion chamber volume / 8.49cc gasket and a -12cc dish and the 82.5mm pistons its 8.1:1 ore are my calculation off?

Your calculation is correct. I updated the information now to reflect the latest update from Mahle. We can't go with a -12cc dish considering most of you running these pistons will be over 2 bar.
As of right now with council from Mahle , we are going to go with a -8cc dish.

If everyone can agree that the CR yielded is too low then we can go with a -5cc dish which will yeild approx 0.2 --> 0.3 points higher on the CR.

[Wizard-of-OD]

see above.

[V6quattro]

Nice! Only i noticed you saing the CR was 9:1 using the OEM AAN metal layer gasket. But when i calculate it with a 44cc combustion chamber volume / 8.49cc gasket and a -12cc dish and the 82.5mm pistons its 8.1:1 ore are my calculation off?

[Wizard-of-OD]

I'm not really interested in going the 147mm rod. So i'm passing on this one. Sorry!

Based on feedback like the above , people don't want to deviate from a 144/20mm connecting rod so I am going to be running 2 different combinations:

86.4mm STROKE: To be used with 144/20mm Connecting rod
Bore : 79.5mm -> 83mm
Stroke = 86.4mm
Compression Height = 32.8mm
Wrist pin size = 20mm

95.5mm STROKE:
Bore : 81mm -> 83mm
Stroke = 95.5mm
Compression Height = 28.25mm
Wrist pin size = 21mm


86.4mm Stroke List:

1. Rallyequattro – 1 set x 79.5mm bore
2. Wizard-of-OD – 1 set x 83mm bore

95.5mm Stroke List:

1. Wizard-of-OD – 1 set x 82.5mm bore

For those with running an ABF motor w/92.8mm stroke , you will need to deck the block 1mm.

This should please everyone.

[Wizard-of-OD]

maybe this one will work for you:
http://theprojectpad.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=1476

2618 alloy

[varia]

I'm not really interested in going the 147mm rod. So i'm passing on this one. Sorry!

maybe this one will work for you:

http://theprojectpad.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=1476

[V6quattro]

I'm not really interested in going the 147mm rod. So i'm passing on this one. Sorry!

[Wizard-of-OD]

I'm already running 144mm forged rods and 20mm pins. So i rather stay whit them. I never heard off the 147.2mm rods?

I'm just curious about the piston to wall clearance on the 142 Alloy pistons. I'm now running JE 2618 pistons and .07mm piston to wall clearance if i remember right.

So 0.002" wall clearance? Seems about right for 2618.
You will need to run 147.2mm rods with these pistons. Unless we get :
8 people x 32.8 compression height
8 people x 29.5 compression height
then there is no way around it so we have to stick to something universal that satisfies everyone.
DM Forged makes connecting rods for VW/Audi/Seat/Skoda/Porsche
very successful in the European (especially UK) 1.8T market in 144/20mm length
the MOQ is 60 pieces to be made in 147.2mm centre to centre so we are good there.

Connecting rods will be $500 USD/set if I run a GB through DM so we save there and you can always sell your 144/20mm's to someone else.

[V6quattro]

Also are you ok using a 147.2mm connecting rod and a 29.5mm Compression Height piston?

I'm already running 144mm forged rods and 20mm pins. So i rather stay whit them. I never heard off the 147.2mm rods?

I'm just curious about the piston to wall clearance on the 142 Alloy pistons. I'm now running JE 2618 pistons and .07mm piston to wall clearance if i remember right.

[Wizard-of-OD]

Connecting Rod Length = 144mm
Compression Height = 32.8mm

Also are you ok using a 147.2mm connecting rod and a 29.5mm Compression Height piston?

[Wizard-of-OD]

2.2 20V Turbo – 3B/AAN/ADU
Bore = 81.0mm
Stroke = 86.4mm
Deck Height = 220mm
Connecting Rod Length = 144mm
Compression Height = 32.8mm


I'm maybe interested in a set 82mm pistons. What CR would it be? And how much power would the wrist pins take? And what is the piston to wall clearance for this pistons?

They will have a -12cc dish so that should yield a 9:1 CR with the OEM AAN metal layer gasket.

Wrist pins are going to be 21mm and so far guys are cracking 800-900hp on 21mm pins so I think we are good there. Piston to wall clearance is dependent on your engine builder. Each engine builder choose a different spec for wall clearance depending on bore and alloy used.

[V6quattro]

2.2 20V Turbo – 3B/AAN/ADU
Bore = 81.0mm
Stroke = 86.4mm
Deck Height = 220mm
Connecting Rod Length = 144mm
Compression Height = 32.8mm


I'm maybe interested in a set 82mm pistons. What CR would it be? And how much power would the wrist pins take? And what is the piston to wall clearance for this pistons?

[Wizard-of-OD]

Ignore this:

AAN / 3B/ADU/MC / whatever you will use this piston with a 147.2mm connecting rod
220mm - (86.4mm / 2 + 147.2mm + 29.5mm) = 0.1mm below deck (incase you need to deck your block)

6A/9A/KR 2.0 16V Motor or even ABF motor (Not for the Audi guys but VW guys) with stock 92.8mm stroke then you will use this piston with a 144mm or 160mm connecting rod depending on deck height:
236mm – (92.8mm / 2 + 160mm + 29.6mm) = 0.1mm below deck (incase you need to deck your block)

ABF w/ 95.5mm stroke then you will use a 159mm Connecting rod:
236mm – (95.5mm / 2 + 159mm + 29.6mm) = 0.35mm above deck – so use a 1.6mm ABA head gasket

2.5 20V Motor then you will use this piston with a 159mm or 160mm connecting rod
159mm rod:
236mm – (95.5mm / 2 + 159mm + 29.6mm) = 0.25mm above deck
160mm rod:
236mm – (95.5mm / 2 + 160mm + 29.6mm) = 1.25mm above deck

see above.

[Wizard-of-OD]

UPDATE:
2 LISTS RUNNING NOW:
86.4mm Stroke & 95.5mm Stroke

Hi Everyone,
Putting this back out there. As Mahle Motorsport Powerpak leading distributor for the Volkswagen / Audi lineup I am going to try and revive this as we are in need of 2 sets of Pistons (one for my personal project) and I will not go the JE route.
Mahle’s charges around $1400 USD for a set of Custom Pistons + options so to be blunt , if we could save money doing a production run then I am perfectly happy with that.
These will be made from Mahle’s proprietary 142 alloy which is a blend between 2618 and 4032 (exact ratio undisclosed).
Mahle 142 alloy is what is used in the high end present motors such as the Audi TTRS 2.5 TFSI and RS5 etc. All pistons will come with Mahle’s Grafal coating (the grey coating you see on side skirts etc).

PRICING IS AS FOLLOWS:
CUSTOM RUN = $1450 USD including rings & locks. This will be custom made to your specs.
PRODUCTION RUN = $850 USD/ set + shipping which is over $600 USD in savings.

Stipulations:
• MOQ of 40 pieces – 8 sets of 5 cylinder pistons.
• Mahle 142 Alloy forging will be used ( a blend between 2618 & 4032 alloy)
• Lead time 4-6 weeks (Could be longer , could be shorter as it depends on when they will be cutting another group from that forging).
• Mahle proprietary Grafal coating applied as standard (no need to farm out for coated skirts and crowns like the JE’s)
• Only the Bore size can be changed
• Minimum Bore size from Forging is 82mm (so all of those with 79.5mm will need to go to 82mm)
• Maximum Bore size from Forging is 84.5mm
• Compression Height can not be changed
• Compression ratio i.e. Dish CC can not be changed so it is fixed
• Wrist Pin size can not be changed
• Fixed cut out for intake valve diameter – I would probably go with +2mm oversized on the cut outs for those running Ferrea/Supertech larger diameter valves

The MOQ for Mahle is 40 pieces or 8 sets. They come with following:
- Wrist pin / Gudgeon pin
- Wrist pin / Gudgeon pin locks
- Piston Rings
- Installation instruction


These are the associated dimensions:

2.0 16V 9A/KR Engine:
Bore = 82.5mm
Stroke = 92.8mm
Deck Height = 220mm
Connecting Rod Length = 144mm
Compression Height = 29.6mm

2.0 16V ABF Engine:
Bore = 82.5mm
Stroke = 92.8mm
Deck Height = 236mm
Connecting Rod Length = 159mm
Compression Height = 30.6mm

2.2 20V Turbo – 3B/AAN/ADU
Bore = 81.0mm
Stroke = 86.4mm
Deck Height = 220mm
Connecting Rod Length = 144mm
Compression Height = 32.8mm

2.5 20V Turbo Hybrid – Using 2.5 TDI + 2.2 20V Cylinder Head
Bore = 82.Xmm
Stroke = 95.5mm
Deck Height = 236mm (machined from 236.45mm)
Connecting Rod Length = 160mm
Compression Height = 28.25mm

Based on the above and the fact that we have access to the following connecting rods from DM Forged:
- 144mm Centre to Centre w/ 20mm wrist pin
- 147.2mm Centre to Centre w/ 21mm wrist pin
- 154mm Centre to Centre w/ 21mm wrist pin
- 159mm Centre to Centre w/ 21mm wrist pin
- 160mm Centre to Centre w/ 21mm wrist pin

And the following multilayer head gaskets
- AAN x 82.5mm
- AAN x 83mm bore
With 1.6mm compressed thickness respectively

These will be the specs for my set (sample):
• Bore = 83mm
• Stroke = 86.4mm
• Block = 7A/AAN/ADU/3B @ 220mm Deck height
• Connecting Rod length = 144mm
• Compression Height = 220 – [(86.4/2) + 144] = 32.8mm
• Piston Dish CC = 10cc
• Wrist pin = 20mm


An Elring AAN 20V Turbo head gasket has a max bore of 82.2mm and a thickness when fully compressed of 1.6mm = 8.49cc
A Stock 7A cylinder head with flat Ferrea/Supertech Standard Size valves has a volume of 44cc in the valve pocket area.
Assuming a -10cc dish we get the following:

Vc = 8cc + 44cc + 8.49cc = 60.49

86.4mm STROKE:
79.5mm bore x 86.4mm stroke = 2144.4cc : Vh = 2144.4 / 5 = 428.88 cc / cylinder
81.0mm bore x 86.4mm stroke = 2226.1cc : Vh = 445.20 cc / cylinder
81.5mm bore x 86.4mm stroke = 2253.7cc : Vh = 450.74 cc / cylinder

82.0mm bore x 86.4mm stroke = 2281.4cc : Vh = 456.28 cc / cylinder
82.5mm bore x 86.4mm stroke = 2309.3cc : Vh = 461.86 cc / cylinder
83.0mm bore x 86.4mm stroke = 2337.4cc : Vh = 467.44 cc / cylinder

Mahle has just informed us that the Mahle142 forging is no longer available in anything under 82mm due to the features needed for the rings.
That means 82mm bore is now the minimum bore allowed:

Compression Ratio is as follows:
82mm Bore:
E (compression ratio) = (Vh + Vc) / Vc
= 456.28 + 60.49 / 60.49
= 8.54 : 1 CR

82.5mm Bore:
= 461.86 + 60.49 / 60.49
= 8.64 : 1 CR

83.0mm Bore:
= 467.44 + 60.49 / 60.49
= 8.73 : 1 CR

95.5mm STROKE:
82.0mm bore x 95.5mm stroke = 2521.7cc : Vh = 504.34 cc / cylinder
82.5mm bore x 95.5mm stroke = 2552.5cc : Vh = 510.50 cc / cylinder
83.0mm bore x 95.5mm stroke = 2583.6cc : Vh = 516.72 cc / cylinder

Compression Ratio is as follows:
82mm Bore:
E (compression ratio) = (Vh + Vc) / Vc
= 504.34 + 60.49 / 60.49
= 9.34 : 1 CR

82.5mm Bore:
= 510.50 + 60.49 / 60.49
= 9.45 : 1 CR

83.0mm Bore:
= 516.72 + 60.49 / 60.49
= 9.54 : 1 CR



Based on the above we will be doing a run of 2 sets - 80 pieces in total.
86.4mm STROKE:
Bore : 81mm -> 83mm
Stroke = 86.4mm
Compression Height = 32.8mm
Wrist pin size = 20mm

95.5mm STROKE:
Bore : 81mm -> 83mm
Stroke = 95.5mm
Compression Height = 28.25mm
Wrist pin size = 21mm

86.4mm Stroke List:

1. Rallyequattro – 1 set x 82mm bore
2. V6quattro - 1 set x 82mm bore
3. Wizard-of-OD – 1 set x 83mm bore
4. Lars Bjornstad – 1 set x 83mm bore
5. MuK1989 - 1 set x 82mm bore

95.5mm Stroke List:

1. Wizard-of-OD – 1 set x 82.5mm bore
2. Jared Hersh – 1 set x 82.0mm bore