1992 Audi UrS4 Avant - Ragusa Green

[UrS4boy]

Any thoughts on this?

Yes

[Bram]

Yes

hehehe, yes you are right.

Too bad I can not do too much investments on this car, so new dampers are out of the question.

[UrS4boy]

hehehe, yes you are right. Too bad I can not do too much investments on this car, so new dampers are out of the question.

Sorry, you keep missing my point: You can modify the spring perch height IF you need to. This is easier on the Bilstein but I image that it could be done on other rear shocks as well.

[Bram]

Sorry, you keep missing my point: You can modify the spring perch height IF you need to. This is easier on the Bilstein but I image that it could be done on other rear shocks as well.

I don't think I can do this spring perch height change with stock shocks or can I? I would like to avoid buying new shocks.
I hope that choosing the right springs would bring my Avant to the desired ride-height, front and rear.......or it must be the case that people really found that using stock shocks (1BA?) with 1BE springs or Eibach springs does not work?

Next to that it's hard to compare the UrS4 / UrS6 springs advertised. Some mention lowering springs for 35mm front and 30mm rear, but what car exactly is their reference?...... My 1992 UrS4 is clearly higher on it's feet compared (1BA suspension) to e.g. the UrS6 or later UrS4.

So I need to do some more homework, before I spend 300-400 Euro on man hours with a garage for test fitting some Eibach or stock 1BE sport springs from the S6 (Plus).

[Bram]

Just to make the different springs rates a bit more tangible, instead of me worrying only about height differences, I found a reference on one of the other Audi forums:

old message posted to the s-car list from Steve Voits, in part and altered a bit;

FRONT:

Stock Front (labeled silver, silver, yellow) 1BA
Rate: 167 lb/in
Comments: linear in nature

Audi Sport Front Spring 1BE (silver, pink, pink; labeled 4A0 411 105 R or S)
Rate: 194 lb/in (+16% over stock)
Comments: linear in nature
Estimated lowering from 1 BA: 19mm

Eibach Front (labeled 1527001VA, part of 1529.140 <note: not 1529.140E> kit)
Rate: 200 lb/in (+20% over stock)
Comments: linear in nature
Estimated lowering from 1BA: 22-24mm

REAR:

Stock Rear (labeled pink, green) 1BA
Rate: 220 lb/in
Comments: linear in nature

Audi Sport Rear Sedan 1BE (labeled blu, blu, blu, yellow, also p/n 4A5.411.115 AG)
Audi Sport Rear Avant 1BE (labeled silver, pink, pink, also p/n 4A9 511 115 AK)
Rate: 232 lb/in (+ 5% over stock)
Comments: linear in nature
Estimated lowering from 1BA: 19 mm

Eibach Rear (labeled 1517002HA **see note above** part of 1529.140E kit)
Rate: 249 lb/in (+13% over stock)
Comments: linear once the car's load collapses the initial inactive coils
Estimated lowering from 1BA: 22-24 mm

[UrS4boy]

You are over thinking this and becoming immobilized by information.

Did you ever state your objectives? As in how much lower you want to go? Do you realize that very few spring kits (matching front and rear springs) were specifically for the C4 Avants?

The 1BA "standard suspension" was the highest (lifted the bottom of the car furthest from the ground and left the largest gap between the top of the tire and the edge of the wheel arch on the body.

The 1BE sport suspension lowers the car roughly 19 mm from the 1BA standard height. You can still use the same shocks/inserts as the 1BA suspension.

The aftermarket options lower the car more than the 1BE suspension but require shorter shocks/inserts than the 1BA/1BE suspension. In the case of Bilstein, this means Sports instead of Heavy Duty (or whatever the European market designations are).

With Eibach springs, which lower the car about 25 mm from 1BA levels, you can get away with slotting in the upper strut mounts to get enough top swing to bring the camber back to spec, e.g. -1 deg.

With H&R springs, which lower the car about 30 mm from 1BA levels, you can NOT get away with slotting the upper strut mounts to bring you back into camber spec. You either have to redrill the upper strut plate and reset the mounting studs or you have to go to aftermarket camber/caster mounts, e.g. those provided by 2Bennett. These will increase noise and harshness because they use spherical bearings.

As for adjusting the rear height because it is an avant, there will be issues and you will have to either live with them or come up with a solution, e.g. changing the spring perch location.

It's all a compromise. There is no perfect solution, in part because there are an infinite number of definitions of "perfect". What I say is perfect is not what somebody else will call perfect.

You have to decide what your objectives are.

[Bram]

Thanks for making the overview. I do not think I am loosing the overview here due to all the info and possibilities.

Maybe I have not been clear enough in explaining the issue with my UrS4 Avant (see the picture of my avant in a recent post and you see the issue immediately).

Currently I see no solution for a single spring kit that brings down the front by 2-3 cm and the rear only by 1 cm. I want this to lower the car just a little bit (3" exhaust should not touch the speed bumps when on 16" winter tires) for better handling and better looks. I can live with a bit stiffer springs, if that will occur when fitting Eibach or 1BE springs.
It really annoys me that the front of my UrS4 is so much higher compared to the rear when you look at the wheel distance to wheel arches.

Sorry for trying to make sense. I am no way an springs / shock expert, so I want to learn. If I read your comments correctly I have only one option for sticking with stock shocks by taking the 1BE springs. I was not aware of this before, so massive thanks for pointing that out. This would be the cheapest solution for now which is also one of the objectives

[macspring]

With cars and perfection, rarely is the cheapest solution the best.

Have you looked at coilovers, just in case you found extra funds. While dearer, they could be a better use of funds overall / in the longterm.

Measure twice and cut once....

Kind regards.


p.s Hi Dave! Brilliant as ever, ya boy ya ! ( complementary local expression )

[Bram]

With cars and perfection, rarely is the cheapest solution the best.

Have you looked at coilovers, just in case you found extra funds. While dearer, they could be a better use of funds overall / in the longterm.

Measure twice and cut once....

Kind regards.


p.s Hi Dave! Brilliant as ever, ya boy ya ! ( complementary local expression )

Well regarding your comment on cheapest is not always the best when striving for perfection, I can agree.
I have spent thousands of Euros over the years on my S2 Avant and UrQ projects, so know how it works.

Still there are many persons happy with 1BA and 1BE suspension setup, so in the case of defining 'best' (value for money in my case) I see the 1BE springs is only solution for now to try out. Especially the state the UrS4 bodywork is in, the almost 400.000 km mileage it has and intended relocation to Brussels coming up, I do not know how what the near future will bring.

For more money spend obviously there are much better solutions to my UrS4 suspension problem.


It is a very nice drivers car though and I like it much better compared to the S2 Avant I had so I intend to keep it as long as possible

[HMS-S6]

Yes

Sorry for the slight Hijack, but Dave, how far apart do you suggest is safe for the perch grooves? I NEED to do this to my avant ASAP

[popdemonic]

Get the H&R 29828-1 violet.you will get the front lowered more than 40mm.I had tried so many aftermarket shocks abs and springs for C4 Chassis.

I have 1BE suspension .when the car with Eibach spring,it's lower than the stock spring around 25-30mm.I decided to get rid off and purchased the

new H&R spring.now i got more than 40-45mm lowered.Eibach is much more stiffer while the H&R sticks on the comfort side.it retained the stock

feeling while getting your car lowered.i wonder there's only a few set of 29828-1 available on this day.the only issue for H&R is you neew to get the

shorter shock abs otherwises,they're bottom out and leaky finally.it needs Bilstein Sport shocks only.

[Bram]

Just back in action after selling my old UrQ project

As a daily car I have an early UrS4 from 1992, that runs with a dizzy at the back of the cyl head.
I read that it is not easy to map this ECU or replace the ECU chips with higher boost AAN chips, used in later UrS4 or UrS6 cars.

What options do I have for my car to get it chipped?

Cheers

[UrS4boy]

...As a daily car I have an early UrS4 from 1992, that runs with a dizzy at the back of the cyl head. I read that it is not easy to map this ECU or replace the ECU chips with higher boost AAN chips, used in later UrS4 or UrS6 cars.
What options do I have for my car to get it chipped? Cheers

Bram: I don't know what you've read but it is wrong. The ECU doesn't care or know the difference between the G40 Cam sensor in the tuna can (dizzy) or behind the exhaust cam. Furthermore, your ECU might have been socketed from the factory (there is a weak correlation between the tuna can dizzy G40 and factory-socketed ECUs, the earlier the build the more likely your ECU is socketed).

You will have to go to a 3 Bar MAP sensor to get to about 280 hp with a chip set (260 hp with the 2.5 Bar MAP)

I am sending you a PM to pursue this further.

G40 info: http://forums.quattroworld.com/s4s6/msgs/22580.phtml
MAP sensor info: http://forums.quattroworld.com/s4s6/msgs/20417.phtml

[merlin's S4]

I wasn't aware that there was any difference to the ecu, it's still an AAN engine isn't it?. The dizzy looking thing just houses a hall sender which works with the back of the inlet cam. Audi just relocated the hall sender to the front of the head in later cars. I don't think there's any difference from the later S4/S6 when it comes to mapping it.

[merlin's S4]

Dave beat me to it!!