S2 project, goal: sub 11sec

[206]

Hi guys,

i've been reading a Forum for quite some time now, and since i've now got a fairly good opportunity to join the S2 owners club, i've decided to start a topic where i hope to get all the help i can get. I'll definitely need it.

BTW, if i've placed a thread in the wrong Forum part, please move it...

OK, so here's the deal: i'm offered to buy an S2 3b, currently in not-so-good condition (it's crashed...a little), it can be repaired with relative ease, and i was thinking of getting this car to start a new small project of mine. Now, i'm a bit of a car freak, having already completed a 380BHP (+ nitrous) Peugeot 206 S16, a BMW E30 M3 with SAAB 2,3t engine putting out 550BHP (+ nitrous as well...), i'm now after a 4WD car able to cope with some serious power - enter the S2

So, the ultimate goal with the car would be to make a sub-11sec car - as far as i could tell it would take at least 600BHP. Money is NO OBJECT.

I've got a few questions and conditions to start with, then:

1. Car has to be street legal and driveable on the street. At least it has to retain a decent degree of civility and driveability.
2. What kind of engine mods am i looking at here - what i need, for a beginning, is a general guideline, without too many details, like what engine (3b, ABY...?), what head, what pistons, can the crank withstand all that power, that sort of stuff, general engne spec
3. can the drivetrain/gearbox take that strain?

So, there you go. Basically ask yourself - what would YOU make out of an S2 if money were no object?

Hope to hear some opinions, as i'm VERY serious about this, so don't let me down

Cheers

[Acidburn]

Take a look thru the threads section, try mark halligans (hope thats spelt right ) as I think he was closing in on that amount of power, audiman afaik got 600+bhp and terrybullwon/jamo are both getting on towards that sort of power once the engines are done.

Btw money no object

that will go well with the s2.

[donce]

go like palles2. diesel crank, diesel block, and atleast gt35 with big hot side.thats it

[206]

Among the things that i didn't really think about changing were the block and the crank...? Stock items won't hold that much, or is there another reason? I thought the blocks are the same?

OK, GT35R was my choice as well, but everything else is a bit of a mystery...

- pistons - which ones, what CR?
- conrods - Pauter, Carillo...any special requirements for those?
- what headgasket?
- intake manifold?
- exhaust manifold - equal length, split pulse...? I thought about getting one made by PeterG from SWE, but unfortunately nobody will be getting one of those anymore Alternatives?
- WG and BOV choice - Tial, Turbosmart?
- camshaft?
- any upgrades on the transmission, e.g. better rear diff (sorry if i say something stupid...), stronger driveshafts? What, where....?

Etc, that sort of stuff.

Don't get me wrong, i could, to be honest, just go out and buy a bunch of stuff that will work reasonably well together, but i thought that using other people's experience about making a list of best-fit components might be a better idea.

[zlobo]

dobro dosao,

Here is an example

- pistons - You can use JE or cp or stock pistons (limit of stock pistons is around 600hp)

- conrods - Pauter, Carillo, verdi etc
- what head gasket rs2 steel multi layers would be ok.
- intake manifold, a Wagner would be fine. else you have furans and many more.
- exhaust manifold - equal length, yes if possible. Peter died last year so no more em from him rip furans also have em

- WG and BOV choice - wg you can use stock to around 650+ with a harder spring else i would go for tial. depends on if you going to run stock motronic or a aftermarket ecu. Turbosmart hks etc
- camshaft , cat cams ~260-270 shrick or stock if you want a cheaper version 7a cams.
- any upgrades on the transmission, eg ur s4 gearbox depends on wich gearbox you have today. dione driveshafts in the rear meybe.


probably forgot somthing..

[206]

Ok, that's more useful

I know about Peter, since he died on a return trip after having delivered the manifold he just made for my car

As for the ECU, is it possible to run all this on stock ECU? How would i change the program inside? I was thinking of a standalone ECU, but if the stock option is still possible, why not...

As for the transmission, the engine available with the car is a stock 3B with 5-speed 'box.

[206]

- intake manifold, a wagner would be fine. eles you have furans and many more.
- exhaust manifold - equal length,yes if posible. Peter died last year so no more em from him rip furans also have em...

Furans manifolds, Wagner manifolds, Dione driveshafts...hm, got any links for those companies?

RS2 gasket should work, just a stock Audi part? I presume the crank bearings from the RS2 could be used as well?

And what is an 7A cam, anyway...?

Basically, a goooood list of parts suppliers is what i could really use

[zlobo]

Furans manifolds, Wagner manifolds, Dione driveshafts...hm, got any links for those companies?

RS2 gasket should work, just a stock Audi part? I presume the crank bearings from the RS2 could be used as well?

And what is an 7A cam, anyway...?

Basically, a goooood list of parts suppliers is what i could really use

Wagner www.wagner-tuning.de

http://furans.se/

Dont have the link to dione but but i think http://www.pure-pf.com also can make them.
Rs2 gasket is a stock one.. you can get a noname also 034motorsport.co have alot of nice stuff.. 7a engine a 2.3l 20v non turbo audi engine.

you also need a clutch ex sachs sinter with a harder pressure plate.

[S2central.net]

@206 - nothing like setting yourself a target. You are clearly a car freak with the previous work you have done. Respect to that. Most folk on this forum are die-hard Audi freaks so we often speak about things you can't understand yet.

Take some time to search thru the project threads here and you will pickup the language. The advice you have got so far is pretty sound and you have chosen a good platform for a 600bhp car - 2WD is a waste of time IMO.

Your biggest challenge in this is going to be ECU programming - there is only a handful of guys across Europe who could remap the Motronic system properly for your needs. None of them are near you so that could be a problem. Factor in some consideration for a good aftermarket system such as MOTEC, 034 or VEMS that can handle sequential injection and distributorless ignition... On a 600bhp I5 engine a distributor would be the last thing I would want to have.

I have a spreadsheet that will help you estimate torque and power from your engine and spec the fuel injectors etc etc if you wish to use that. It uses the max boost profile from your chosen turbo (assume you can read compressor map).

GT35R on 2.5l smells OK... GT40R could be more extreme but less fun to drive on the street with more lag and such.

When we say 2.5l that generally means you need the block and crank from the 2.5 5-cyl diesel engine.

On the transmission aspect for such a machine - forget the 01A gearbox in that 3B - get an 016 (pre torsen) from a quattro older than 1987. These are stronger, have lockable centre and rear diff and have lower F/R ratio for better acceleration - some odd gear spacing but great for the drag strip.

PS - I love the way you say 'Money is no object' - LOL - that is pretty refreshing, but you may live to regret that statement

Paul

[S2central.net]

Assuming VE never higher than 90% and some reasonable estimates at CE and IE with max boost of 2bar then you'll need water injection to help keep air temps low on such a setup.

I'd recommend some Toluene mixture or funky E85 fuel for good knock resilience.

Spreadsheet attached to start your head spinning

[206]

Nice to see that i'm not misunderstood for someone who gets a first taste of the immense work ahead and then gets cold feet

Let me get some things in perspective here, here are a few pics of the BMW i've spent lots of time on - not quite 100% finished yet, but i think you'll get the idea on what has been done:



Not a single component on the car has been left alone, and i DO mean that Mods too numerous to count...if anyone's interested i can put the car specs somewhere else, but let's just say that it cost a MOUNTAIN of money. So, no problems there for an S2

As for the ECU programming, i've done that myself already on the Peugeot - i've used an ECU called NIRA I3+. Anybody heard of that one? Suffice to say that it's on par with Motec and upmarket ECUs for features, for half the price. What i COULD use are ignition basemaps, but it's gonna be a long road until i get there...As for the distributor, sequential injection and ignition is the road i'm going for, no doubts there - BTW the Peugeot uses Audi coil packs, so if i made that work and the ECU supports that i don't think i'll have many problems with that one as well.

As for the transmission - will the 6-speed gearbox from the ABY S2 do any better? Those pre-quattro 'boxes you mentioned, what model, exactly? I live in a country that still drives Yugo as their car of choice, so some parts might be hard to get by, so if i'm looking for it i need to know EXACTLY what to look for...

[206]

Assuming VE never higher than 90% and some reasonable estimates at CE and IE with max boost of 2bar then you'll need water injection to help keep air temps low on such a setup.

I'd recommend some Toluene mixture or funky E85 fuel for good knock resilience.

Spreadsheet attached to start your head spinning

It spins, alright...

Water injection to keep air temp down? Isn't that a bit crude...? Generally, what i did on a Peugeot and BMW is use an CO2 IC sprayer to keep airtemp down if it goes too high (cools the fuel too) and fuel enrichment to keep the EGT in check. BMWs ECU (SAABs Trionic 5) has an automated performance control, and uses EGT information and ion sensing to correct excessive temps and knock by decreasing boost, adding fuel, retarding the ignition, etc...

E85 - i use 10% of ethanol in fuel already, avoid using more because if knock DOES occur, it's MUCH more severe than on gasoline...

[pnanassy]

11.4-11.6 is possible with "stock" engine.At least we did it in 3 cars.

[206]

What do you consider to be a "stock" engine?

I don't thonk i'll be leaving anything "stock"

[206]

Let me see if i got this right, what you're recommending, basically is to drop the standard S2 engine and gearbox, and use 2.5l diesel block and crank, plus the pre-1887 Quattro 'box?

- what about the remainder of the transmission, this box will bolt straight on...?
- what cylinder head, conrods and pistons do i use?
- other engine accessories, they fit right on the block?

Is the standard 3B engine + gearbox that bad, in terms that it can't handle that sort of power, or is the alternative that much better? I was, honestly, thinking of avoiding a lot of "chemistry" and just max-out the standard S2 hardware, so is this necessary for 600+ or just wise or recommended, or what?