Aftermarket VS motronic management

[prj]

Dmitri, you do know that VEMS provides all of the above, (fuel cuts, boost reduction above EGT set level, Fuel addition above EGT level, etc.

Huh? I was saying that about a few other Motronic tunes, by some "big name tuners", not claiming that VEMS or <insert aftermarket ECU here> does not have that.

People that have had similar experience to that would possibly want to tune on their own anyway, or at least get involved. If i were to pay you to do a tune for me, i would like to have the possibility to understand motronic to the extent that i would be able to handle a few things on my own once you left. If that meant that i would need to spend some money on equipment, i dont care, cause once you go back to the country, i cannot have your help anymore, and i cannot wait with the car in the garage until you have a look at settings.

That is the same with ANY aftermarket ECU that you will get a tuner to tune it for you and you dont get involved. So motec,haltec,Vipec, Nira, etc. All will have the same downside.

I agree with this, but you do realize that you represent like 0.1% of all people who tune their cars, right? Most people don't know anything about tuning, they just want their car to go fast.

Sure it takes Billman, Jamo and myself longer to fine tune everyting than a proper educated tuner in these matters.

I would reprase this. You will never tune your car as well as an educated tuner can who does it for a living. And I don't mean wannabes...

My suggestion would be that anyone wanting to run a modified car to some extent( not a Lambo he just bought and chipped), needs to be aware of some mapping stuff.

Disagree here. It depends on the person...

Either way - I am not yet good enough with electronics and circuit design to build a fully fledged daughter board.
Today it's a lot easier to do than before - all that is really needed, is a single SoC that has enough built-in flash memory (more than 80k) and a bunch of I/O ports.

In a way, that's what's lacking around 2.2T - partly because it's so old. People who have the passion to take this system further. Because that's all there is - passion. It makes no financial sense whatsoever.

[dest]

You will never tune your car as well as an educated tuner can who does it for a living.

I think you're missing the point here!
Of course people like Jamo are fully aware that a pro could tune it quicker and better.
Have you not thought that they WANT to do it themselves?
They are happy it is taking longer to get to the same point, because at the same time they are learning more about their car and how it runs.
Some are happy to pay a pro to do it and drive in and out with it finished, where-as others enjoy doing it themselves for satisfaction, knowledge, pride and experience.

Whether you agree or not, you do have an elitest attitude that shines through in every post you make saying that you know how to do it so everyone else is inferior.
The reality is, there is no best tuner or management, its all personal choice and opinion

[A80Avant]

Dmitri, i must say, if i go on a dyno, and spend a few £££ im pretty sure that i can find the MBT on every rpm i need, i can listen for knock and tune timing accordingly. That is pretty much what is needed to get eveyrthing under control and have a good tune. Higher and lower inlet temperatures is something that can be reproduced to some extent on a dyno(esp on higher ones) which is a good thing to do, but after that the car will need fine tuning on road enviroment and different climates.

Are you sure you have the knowledge and experience to tune a car in 3 or 5 hours and be absolutely certain that you will set the timing parameters for cold and hot IAts for every engine that will be presented to you with different timing and compression ratio? Even if you tune while listening for knock and do not rely on the motronic's knock sensors alone i believe that takes a lot of years of experience and knowledge on specific engines to be able to tune safely yet aggresively. I find it hard to believe that most tuners out there know these areas of tuning without spending time on an engine in different circomstances and enviroments. So everyone tunes with a bit of extra care.

I have the ability to know my engine more than anyone else, and given the time i will tune it as good as a tuner. Proof for that is the fact that i managed to do about 420hp on VEMS when at the same time Mihnea did the same on Ross's car on similar setup. Then on the current setup the car makes around 490-500hp when JPs setup (again roughly the same as it has a 7A cam) makes around 500hp without a ported head. So i consider those figures pretty good for a non 'proper' tuner who does this for a living.

[prj]

@Dest
I already said - they represent the minority. A very vocal minority, but nevertheless a minority, so let them use whatever they want to use.
What I dislike is people thinking that they are somehow special, because they bought an aftermarket ECU and forcing that route down on others.

For people who don't want to fiddle with things there's just no need to pay more.
Just because tuners in the UK charge 1000$ or something for changing 6 maps in Motronic, doesn't make it right.

The problem with individuals tuning motronic, is that the entry barrier is high:
2x Emulators + VAT and shipping - 480$
Datalogger in form of SLC DIY with sensors (EGT/AFR) - ~220$
Custom board to emulate boost chip - minimum 30-40$ + CAD design time
KKL cable - 15$
So this is ~750$ of hardware you need just to tune it. You can easily get the non-pnp version of VEMS for that money.
This is not counting software that you will need to... make yourself.

As for attitude - some of the claims on this board are just silly. People just recycle things over and over again that they heard somewhere, without delving into the subject.
There is a very good slogan on a certain forum: "Don't take things for granted - take them apart". Those who understand this are those who will make progress on OEM systems.

As for Vasilis' long post - sorry, but I don't see the point of your post and how it is even remotely on topic. If you want to fiddle with your aftermarket ECU, feel free to do that, no one is stopping you. This is not the argument here. As for my skills - of course everyone could use more experience. That is why I am going to work on a dyno every day for two months in summer.

[dest]

Just because they are a minority, it does not automatically mean they are wrong, which is pretty much what all of your posts suggest

[prj]

Just because they are a minority, it does not automatically mean they are wrong, which is pretty much what all of your posts suggest

Read again what I keep saying this entire thread.

All I am saying is that with a MAF that flows enough and is linearized properly, the stock ECU works with high power setups without compromise.

Tuneability is another subject entirely.
As I already said - I believe in using what is enough to do the job.
An example: today I got a call from a guy who wanted to fit bigger injectors on his stock AAN engine and come for a custom remap and pay me 200 EUR to do it.
I could have just said "ok" but instead I told him that the stock turbo doesn't really flow enough to max out the stock injectors, so he should save his money.

The same for an ECU - if someone wants 500hp reliably from his car, it does not automatically mean he needs to get an aftermarket ECU.
If someone wants to tune his car by himself, then it is much cheaper to buy an aftermarket system. Point being - many tuners sell lots of useless things to people who don't know better. And this whole "standalone is uber" mentality reminds me of this.

[dest]

You seem to be ignoring one huge variable though, which is personal choice

[prj]

You seem to be ignoring one huge variable though, which is personal choice

Not sure what to answer to that.
It's not about "personal choice" I don't care what anyone fits on their car - it's spreading wrong rumors that I don't like and selling people things they don't need.

[A80Avant]

The point of my post is going against the comment that people tuning their own car as a hobby or part time tuners, OR even people that would like to get remotely involved with tuning will NEVER be as as good as a proper tuner. I just presented a few personal examples of how i , a non proper tuner can get similar results with someone like yourself who does it for a living.

So in other words, tuners spend a lot of money and provide a service which to me is not rocket science and if you want to get involved, you can, so we do.

The beauty of the aftermarket ECU like VEMS in particular is the fact that we dont end up relying on a tuner everytime something goes wrong, OR everytime we decide on a simple or a bigger upgrade.

Ill put it in a different way: if i had to pay you everytime i changed an exhaust, a camshaft, a piston setup, a turbo etc, the total amount i would have payed would end up being at least 2-4 times more. SO yes for someone who will just upgrade once and be done with it, the motronic option is the best solution.....(really though how many so stay in one upgrade, and tuners know that and take advantage of it)

You now say that with the knowledge you have accumulated over the last year or so( that is when you joined and were inquiring about how to get equip for motronic) you are able to provide such a good tune that once you are done with my car, i will never need you again?


edit: Who ever said that you are selling things we dont need??????? this is not personal against you, and to be honest im glad there are more solutions with motronic than what there were before. I applaud the fact that you have made a huge progress there. I am skeptical of your arrogance though, because that is the arrogance that other tuners have and that is how owners end up being screwed and get aftermarket ECUs!!

[prj]

I just presented a few personal examples of how i , a non proper tuner can get similar results with someone like yourself who does it for a living.

You have to be kidding me. I don't do this for a living... at least not yet.

[A80Avant]

and yet you converse as if you have abilities that most other tuners dont! hence the arrogant style! its not nice and at least on a forum it makes you look bad (thats just my opinion though)

[dest]

Not sure what to answer to that.
It's not about "personal choice" I don't care what anyone fits on their car - it's spreading wrong rumors that I don't like and selling people things they don't need.

Thats exactly the point!
There is no answer to it, which is why its so confusing that you are like a stuck record saying you dont need aftermarket under XXXbhp.
No one is disagreeing with that fact, but not everyone wants to do that, hence personal choice!
You can sit on here and bang on about your facts all day long, but not everyone wants to use that method then they wont, but it does'nt mean they are wrong for not doing it either, which is what you are seeming to suggest all the time

[prj]

Btw, we have a saying in Russia.

"Seven are not afraid of one".

[prj]

and yet you converse as if you have abilities that most other tuners dont! hence the arrogant style! its not nice and at least on a forum it makes you look bad (thats just my opinion though)

I never said that I have mega abilities.
But I have enough abilities to look at a tune and say it's done wrong.

[repo]

I cannot believe people haven't already realized PRJ will not back up, unless other people are able to turn the world to spin counterclockwise and make a night a day.

And even if You did, still he will resist, and code his Motronic to make more boost on idle to get the moon turning so freaking quick all the Greeks and few geeks will get dizzy and he will have his instant boosting motronic-equipped self-tuned space rocket ready to have the world rolling around his bellybutton again.

And excuse me guys, I am getting cranky. Ran out of popcorn a long ago and it's getting late.