Aftermarket VS motronic management

[A80Avant]

Again, just saying that you are smarter than everyone else is not something that will add any positive effect of what people will believe of you. Let your results speak for themselves. Otherwise you will end up being a king in a one man's kingdom.

as i mentioned already, personally i am not dissingin any way, any of the work that you have done so far. What i do want to see is results, and hopefully an easier way of fiddling with motronic( which probably never happen). Its a good thing that where motronic lacked proper management is now able to be tuned and aftermarket ECUs are not as much needed. Each have their own +/- and that is where the focus should be and among the many posts i think it is sort of clear of what those are!

[A80Avant]

I disagree with that Paul.

So Dmitri, you get my point then. You invested in something and now you will be getting something out of it. Will not get you rich, but its a 'something'

I did invest as well, most of my time(months) tuning my own car which came as a 2 hour solution for my friends car. So i could have worked more on my day job all that time, pay you to tune my car and suggest you to my friend. (example). I didnt, and i think it was worth taking the time to play with it. It was my choice.

[rs200]

OMG.. before few hours this thread didn't exist (5 pages OMG) .. nice talking.. I'm only the reader (for now).

[prj]

Again, just saying that you are smarter than everyone else is not something that will add any positive effect of what people will believe of you. Let your results speak for themselves. Otherwise you will end up being a king in a one man's kingdom.

Please quote me on where I said that.
I am not smarter than everyone else - but I do know my ASM pretty well, and it seems that I have too much spare time on my hands.

And you need to remember - you are talking to a hobbyist like yourself, not a pro tuner.
The reason I started doing all this was because I wanted to understand my car better. The reason I still do this, is because I see too many setups where people fit lots of hardware and put a lot of effort in the car, and then do not have it running properly.
Every single penny that I have gotten from chipping/tuning (which is honestly, not much) has been so far re-invested into more and better tools.

And my friends cars have been mostly test-bunnies. Who agreed for me to have my way with them when I was still learning the basics. I would not tune a strangers car if I was not sure about what I am doing. So far I have not blown any engines up yet.

[UrS4boy]

Vas: After reading this thread, it appears to me that you were purposely trolling for a fight with prj (Dmitri). Dmitri takes the bait and then everyone gangs up on him. Nice going guys.

From my perspective, I think there are merits to both camps, i.e. the "open" nature of VEMS tuning and the more introspective nature of Motronic. There is probably a computer analogy involving Linux on one hand and Microsoft Windows (or Mac OS) on the other hand.

It all comes down to personal choice. That doesn't mean that the other choice is bad, it's just not the one that you prefer. Leave it at that. Some people want to tune VEMS themselves, others want people to tune for them, either VEMS or Motronic. Because Motronic codes were so closely held, the Motronic tuning community is always going to be smaller than the VEMS community.

I for one applaud anyone who is able to take the time to develop knowledge and skills to tune our inline 5, 20 V turbo engines, VEMS or Motronic.

Why diss anybody trying to do that? Very counter productive.

About as smart and useful as a debate over the correct religion for Northern Ireland.

[Jamo]

Actually Dave if you read the thread the 1st posts were factual until PRJ reverted to type and just disses everything that is not his own not the other way round

I've had both motronics tuned by S2central, Chipswizards and MRC and VEMS tuned by Repo and if you ask people I've spoken to I tell them both the pro and cons of both methods, what I object too and it's still in every post is that the hotwire maf is the only method that is safe, which happens to be by PRJ this would be fine but I've asked now on a few occassions for proof of these results to which you get the response "I dont' have nothing to prove to anyone"

You wan't me to take you seriously you acknowledge that your system is untested but has potential yes, but not that all other work including that by Mihnea is junk and my views must be dismissed because i'm not professional or I don't know anything.

I know a lot more than I let on because I investigated motronics but left it alone as I didn't like the attitude of the so called experts in this field which are virtually all the same as PRJ's

[prj]

Actually Dave if you read the thread the 1st posts were factual until PRJ reverted to type and just disses everything that is not his own not the other way round

I've had both motronics tuned by S2central, Chipswizards and MRC and VEMS tuned by Repo and if you ask people I've spoken to I tell them both the pro and cons of both methods, what I object too and it's still in every post is that the hotwire maf is the only method that is safe, which happens to be by PRJ this would be fine but I've asked now on a few occassions for proof of these results to which you get the response "I dont' have nothing to prove to anyone"

You wan't me to take you seriously you acknowledge that your system is untested but has potential yes, but not that all other work including that by Mihnea is junk and my views must be dismissed because i'm not professional or I don't know anything.

I know a lot more than I let on because I investigated motronics but left it alone as I didn't like the attitude of the so called experts in this field which are virtually all the same as PRJ's

1. I don't use a hot wire MAF.
2. As for the tuning - I don't care who is the tuner, the stock MAF reads 350hp. That is not going to change. The MAF is the only way for motronic to know how much air is going into the engine. The HFM5 MAF is not the only way to map Motronic for higher outputs. It is possible to stick the stock MAF into a larger tube or use a SQ MAF. This has been done since 1994 I believe by MTM. A third option is using a piggyback - a MAF emu, which generates a MAF signal based on IAT, MAP, TPS and a VE table. There is a such system made in Ukraine - it actually learns your VE from the MAF being plugged into it as well, and then you can disconnect the MAF.

But just using the stock MAF with maxed out reading does not allow for a good calibration. Just like using a VEMS setup boosting 2 bar on a 200kpa MAP sensor. Everything between 200 and 300 kpa will be running off the last cell.

The car will run well on WOT, but it will not run well in the transients. Just like with Motronic mapped to last cell.

[UrS4boy]

Actually Dave if you read the thread the 1st posts were factual until PRJ reverted to type and just disses everything that is not his own not the other way round.....I know a lot more than I let on because I investigated motronics but left it alone as I didn't like the attitude of the so called experts in this field which are virtually all the same as PRJ's

JAMO: I read EVERY post in all 6 or 7 pages of this thread before I responded. There was dissing on both sides. I maintain that both VEMS and Motronic have their merits.

Someone mentioned that they missed having Mihnea on the forum (presumably so he could enter the debate). I am pretty sure Mihnea is purposely NOT on the forum so he won't be drawn in to such a debate such as this one. That and there is less and less money to be made tuning fewer and fewer 20VT cars, so why should he bother. This is why I don't think Prj should be dissed for continuing to "investigate" (your word) Motronic to the potential benefit of forum members here, likewise, I don't think anyone should diss VEMS users either.

One thing I have observed, and A80avant is particularly "guilty" of this, is VEMS users seemed to be consumed and obsessed with using it. Might appeal to the obsessive compulsive types who want infiinitely detailed control over every minutiae of their engine software.

Personally, I like to drive my MRC-tuned Motronic-controlled RS2'd UrS4 car, and not have to worry about every signal that a VEMS screen could show me. That way I can drive without being distracted.

[Billman]

May I add something here?

In order to tune a car you must be familiar with the mechanical side of the car also. That means that even if someone spent countless hours to learn an ECU (Motronic or not) that does not make him a tuner.

and being the smartest here I suggest the admin should lock this thread and leave it as is.

Fortunately the 2 opinions are well represented in many other threads so anyone of us can make their own opinion. If not they can ask specific questions.

[DJones]

God give me strength, who gives a f**k anyway. Put what the f**k you want on your car if your happy so be it. Get over yourselves chaps... we are all good at something..

[quattrofrank]

I use Vipec because of all the functions and support, and to get 5coils on the 3b engine
Its also nice with swicthable map between e-85 and 98oct and support for flexifuel sensor and traction control.

If motronic where fully configurable for everyone and easy to use, I could have used motronic as well, but I dont want to spend days trying to understand how bosch was thinking 20years ago

[A80Avant]

Vas: After reading this thread, it appears to me that you were purposely trolling for a fight with prj (Dmitri). Dmitri takes the bait and then everyone gangs up on him. Nice going guys.

I think we can leave out any patronising statements. For your information i have communicated with Dmitri in the past and will in the future because i trully believe that he can make a good map with the motronic expecially when able to touch all these maps, so my plan was not to compare an individual to someone else here. It was merely a chance to get more people to see what the differences are and what the +/- are.

Unfortunatelly with your post as well as many others; it looks like it became a personal issue between one person being able to tune motronic so well, that any aftermarket ECU is useless, and because of that i wanted to show that even so, aftermarket ECUs do still have a big role! However it looks like you are adding to the dissing from what i see, but thats ok.

It is not about camps and how open or close they are but about features and how those can accomodate people's views about tuning. That should be the issue, but if attidutes and characters come into play then when statements are filled with arrogance and superiority, then yes, people will get personal, and i tried to point that out as well.

And again Dave, if you had spent quite a lot of money to get a tune out of a setup which then didnt work and ended up spending the same or more to get it to work as it should , you could have been a bit angry and dissapointed. So wanting to take matters into my own hands doesnt make me obsessive. I am a customer which i expect to pay for a service and get what i am promiced.When that doesnt happen and the aftersales sucks, then i get angry. YOu of all people living in the other side of the earth in a country which is well known for their good aftersales may have never had this issue, but over here in Europe, you would probably be 10 times more 'obsessive' for matters like this.

I do plan to have Dmitri do a map for me once the cyl head gets ported, when all the major upgrades are done, so as you can see, im far from believing that VEMS is the only way!

As George Carlin said about war, its not a pr&$£ck waving contest this thread, but its about showing to all what the +/- of each solution is and thats the end of it. Im sorry it turned out to be like that, but amongst the personalisation of the remarks i think some good info has emerged.

[prj]

Unfortunatelly with your post as well as many others; it looks like it became a personal issue between one person being able to tune motronic so well, that any aftermarket ECU is useless, and because of that i wanted to show that even so, aftermarket ECUs do still have a big role! However it looks like you are adding to the dissing from what i see, but thats ok.

Aftermarket ECU is not useless at all.
If you don't have anyone nearby who knows how to calibrate the factory system, then it is your only ticket to getting your car running properly.
And if you want to only tune your own car, and not take things apart, then it's much more financially viable to go aftermarket.

For me it's just interesting to understand how everything works - after this I can maybe learn ME7, then MED9, etc.

[macspring]

All,

The morning after the night before, sorry I missed this last night, but this thread was a nice surprise this morning, so good, (for me), that I delayed going outside to replace my lambda and swopping out my original K24 with a fresh one, (trying to cure blue smoke when the engine is up to running temperature, if it doesn't, valve stem oil seals might be next, cylinder compression checked and ok, thanks Mcandmar).

The thread made me laugh out loud a number of times. Post numbers # 32, 34, 36, 60 and 67. As everyone knows people are different and have different views on the same things, i.e. the common desire for most members on here of owning and making S2s go quicker, this thread pushes the envelope of experience and opinion, once it doesn't get too personal.

Once you are a regular reader on here, one can factor in the personalities posting comments and make one's own mind up on the merits of their respective comments.

But it is not possible to make and omelette without breaking a few eggs.

Remember to enjoy the rest of the weekend, be it driving, fixing or playing with B4s.





p.s. What's HFMS ?

Thanks.

[prj]

p.s. What's HFMS ?

Thanks.

http://www.guzzimental.com/documents...%20Sensors.pdf
These things.